ongoing mass shootings thread

[Moser]

I hope you support regulations that make sure guns won't wind up in the hands of the mentally ill who won't use the weapons for any good.

I definitely do, considering my mother, sister, and brother suffer from mental illness (personality disorder, schizophrenia, depression). I see firsthand all the time what mental illness does to someone you love.

 

[Irvine511]

i didn't say you were a terrorist. i said the NRA is a terrorist organization, and the plenty of people you know have supported a terrorist organization.

the best thing for a responsible gun owner to do is to resign from the NRA if s/he is a member.

while mental health and gun regulations are certainly an important component of combating gun violence, the problem actually is the gun itself.

if i can't buy lawn darts because they're too dangerous, why can i buy a gun?

 

[Moser]

i didn't say you were a terrorist. i said the NRA is a terrorist organization, and the plenty of people you know have supported a terrorist organization.

the best thing for a responsible gun owner to do is to resign from the NRA if s/he is a member.

That is a not a fair statement. That's is the equivalent to saying marijuana smokers support terrorism because the cannabis money funds the Afghanistan insurgency (Afghanistan is the largest producer of cannabis herb...or at least it was very recently). It's a statement of prejudice and presumptuous.

I could go on and say Americans are not the problem. It's the cannabis. But that would be ludicrous.

 

[Irvine511]

That is a not a fair statement. That's is the equivalent to saying marijuana smokers support terrorism because the cannabis money funds the Afghanistan insurgency (Afghanistan is the largest producer of cannabis herb...or at least it was very recently). It's a statement of prejudice and presumptuous.

I could go on and say Americans are not the problem. It's the cannabis. But that would be ludicrous.

the NRA is the most politically powerful organization in the country. it's because of their power and influence that measures supported by 80-90% of the American public were not implemented by Congress in the aftermath of Sandy Hook, as just one example.

the comparison you made between a militarized insurgency in a 3rd world country shattered by decades of war and a political lobby who have members who pay dues and carry cards isn't fair. these are two very different things.

 

[Moser]

the NRA is the most politically powerful organization in the country. it's because of their power and influence that measures supported by 80-90% of the American public were not implemented by Congress in the aftermath of Sandy Hook, as just one example.

the comparison you made between a militarized insurgency in a 3rd world country shattered by decades of war and a political lobby who have members who pay dues and carry cards isn't fair. these are two very different things.

How is it not fair? There are actual facts (http://www.unodc.org/unodc/secured/wdr/wdr2013/World_Drug_Report_2013.pdf) that back up my prejudice, presumptuous statement about terrorism, while you call the NRA organization and its members terrorists because you simply don't like what they advocate. Unless you have clear, hard evidence that the NRA supports mass murder, then I don't see why your reasoning isn't as irrational as mine.

Also, the background check billed failed because of the failure of leadership in Washington. Nothing got passed. Even NRA-backed legislation on cracking down on illegal arms trafficking and expanding support for mental health illness (which I'm sure 90% of the public were also proponents) was shot down in the vote.

We had one party trying to cram assault-weapon bans, national registries, magazine bans, etc. down the people's throats, until the Party of No decided to do what they always do best, and just said no to everything. It was a complete disaster. This is what happens when we get you lazy and vote for a single platform. Two sides that don't know how to cooperate.

If you want someone to blame, look around at others, but also look in the mirror. We all share the blame. We elected our federal government. To single out one organization and its members is not fair at all. We're in this together.

Stop simplifying complicated matters into something it's not. The NRA is not a terrorist organization. Obama is not a Marxist.

By the way, nobody is stopping Connecticut from issuing their very strict gun-control laws of their own. Not even terrorists. I don't know about you, but that makes me feel a little better.

 

[Irvine511]

How is it not fair? There are actual facts (http://www.unodc.org/unodc/secured/wdr/wdr2013/World_Drug_Report_2013.pdf) that back up my prejudice, presumptuous statement about terrorism, while you call the NRA organization and its members terrorists because you simply don't like what they advocate. Unless you have clear, hard evidence that the NRA supports mass murder, then I don't see why your reasoning isn't as irrational as mine.

guns are a threat to public health and safety, and the NRA's mission is to increase access and ownership of these weapons via political intimidation and coercion, as well as the fostering of racial fear in the general population via op-eds like the one i linked to written by LaPierre. the result is the mass death of Americans. further, their response to mass death -- like in Newtown -- is to increase ownership and sales of these same weapons that result in mass death and in fact going to so far as to advocate placing those very same guns in schools themselves.

simply because the NRA isn't a band of thugs trying to overthrow a government in Afghanistan doesn't mean they aren't a terrorist organization. i wasn't disputing that. i was disputing that as the only definition of terrorism. the NRA are terrorists. and it's members know *exactly* where their money is going and what it is doing, whereas a marijuana smoker may not be nearly as aware and certainly doesn't carry a card from the insurgency.

it can absolutely be argued that drug users support terrorism in part, however, it's a much blurrier line, and becomes a stronger argument in favor of legalization due to the money created by the existence of the black market for illegal drugs. no one in WA or CO is supporting any insurgency in Afghanistan.

 

[BoMac]

Reports of at least 10 to 15 dead in Oregon.

But, please, now is not the time to talk about gun control. The bodies aren't even cold yet.

 

[YBORCITY]

Just awful....I wonder what the rest of the world thinks of the US and this issue?

 

[Galeongirl]

Just heard about it on the news.. this really is way out of hand.

I can't speak for the entire rest of the wordl YBOR, but here the general response is a total disbelief on how some people can still hold on to wanting to keep guns while these things happen far too often. Though to be honest, even just once would be too often. But I'll respect Bomac's wishes and not elaborate on that further.

My thoughts are with the victims.

 

[BoMac]

But I'll respect Bomac's wishes and not elaborate on that further.

I was being sarcastic. Every time this happens, some politicians and media pundits usually say something like "now is not the time to talk about gun control. Let the families grieve".

I'm fairly certain some presidential candidates will make similar comments in the coming days. And it's really mind blowing. Incidents like this is the perfect time to begin an honest dialogue.

But many are resigned to the status quo. If 20 kindergarten students slaughtered in cold blood did nothing to change things, nothing will.

 

[Irvine511]

this article was written after Sandy, but it applies today, as in all those other days of shootings, mass and small.

Gun control is not a panacea, any more than penicillin was. Some violence will always go on. What gun control is good at is controlling guns. Gun control will eliminate gun massacres in America as surely as antibiotics eliminate bacterial infections. As I wrote last week, those who oppose it have made a moral choice: that they would rather have gun massacres of children continue rather than surrender whatever idea of freedom or pleasure they find wrapped up in owning guns or seeing guns owned—just as the faith healers would rather watch the children die than accept the reality of scientific medicine. This is a moral choice; many faith healers make it to this day, and not just in thought experiments. But it is absurd to shake our heads sapiently and say we can’t possibly know what would have saved the lives of Olivia and Jesse.

On gun violence and how to end it, the facts are all in, the evidence is clear, the truth there for all who care to know it—indeed, a global consensus is in place, which, in disbelief and now in disgust, the planet waits for us to join. Those who fight against gun control, actively or passively, with a shrug of helplessness, are dooming more kids to horrible deaths and more parents to unspeakable grief just as surely as are those who fight against pediatric medicine or childhood vaccination. It’s really, and inarguably, just as simple as that.

The Simple Truth About Gun Control - The New Yorker

 

[corianderstem]

I'm not even sad or shocked. I'm just disgusted.

 

[YBORCITY]

45 school shootings so far this year...... but you know what we Americans REALLY care about who'll be voted off of Dancing With The Stars next week...... ..... just keep going nothing to REALLY see here.

 

[YBORCITY]

I'm not even sad or shocked. I'm just disgusted.

Same with myself..... I'm more disgusted at myself for not being shocked/saddened like I used to be but this will be the time the laws will change (yeah right).

 

[prbiker15]

I'm not even sad or shocked. I'm just disgusted.

Exactly how I feel. What a shame that stuff like this keeps happening.

 

[nbelcik]

This happened an hour south of me. Fuck, I just can't do today


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[Moonlit_Angel]

So awful. Ugh.

Yep. Just keep on sticking your heads in the sand on this issue, America. We don't have a gun problem. Nope. Not a problem at all.

 

[deep]

reports are:

20 year old shooter is dead

and

1. he had students stand and state their religion

2, Alek Skarlatos, is from Roseburg, Oregon (this could be germane, or coincidence)

 

[bono_212]

I'm done. I won't have kids in this country if something doesn't change. I'll find a job overseas somewhere. I kinda speak another language, and the media industry doesn't just exist in the US. I can't be here anymore.

 

[LemonMelon]

"As I said...just a few months ago...and I said a few months before that...and I said each time we see one of these mass shootings...our thoughts and prayers are not enough. It's not enough.

We are not the only country on earth that has people with mental illnesses or want to do harm to other people. We are the only advanced country on earth that sees these kinds of mass shootings every few months.

There is a gun for roughly every man, woman and child in America. So, how can you, with a straight face, make the argument that more guns will make us safer?"

-Obama, at today's address

 

[LemonMelon]

Hell, I could transcribe every word of Obama's statement. Please watch it. He's incredibly upset and repeats the consensus in this thread.

[TWEET]649715734277435392[/TWEET]

Will anything be done? No, probably not. But it's great to hear our outcry repeated by Obama more or less word-for-word.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

My mom said that he stated that this was the fifteenth time he had to give a speech on this sort of tragedy since he's been president.

Fifteenth. Since he's been president. Since 2009.

How is it people don't see anything wrong with this picture again?

 

[bono_212]

I just want to cry, I feel so defeated right now.

 

[Axver]

Just awful....I wonder what the rest of the world thinks of the US and this issue?

Simple confusion.

Nobody in Australia can understand why the US has such a fetish for its insane absence of gun control policy. Every time one of these shootings happens, people here will turn to each other and say "after Port Arthur in 1996, we implemented stricter gun control laws. Guess what happened? No more mass shootings."

Same in New Zealand, just replace Port Arthur 1996 with Aramoana 1990.

America, wake the fuck up to yourselves. If you want each household to have enough weaponry to arm a small country, then be honest about the human cost. If you think that human cost is too high a price to pay - and you fucking should think that - then get rid of the goddamn guns. It's not as if they're a necessity to life. Your life will be just as rich and fulfilling if you can't buy guns in every second shop, I promise.

 

[Kieran McConville]

The way these events seem to be upticking in frequency, I'm left with the feeling that America has a lot more than just a gun problem (although better regulation would indeed be a much needed panacea there).

 

[corianderstem]

Of course it's not just guns. What is going on in the minds of so many people that the resolution to any problem or anger is extreme violence?

I mean, how the fuck do you even begin to try and change that sort of thinking in society?

Which is certainly not to say I don't want to restrict guns. Absolutely, I do. It's insane.

 

[cobl04]

Even our hard right thinks your gun laws are fucked. My goodness.


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[Moonlit_Angel]

So I just watched Obama's speech.

"Does anybody really believe that?"

"Those of us who are lucky enough to hug our kids a little closer..."

And that's just a couple lines that jumped out at me alongside what else has been quoted here. Damn. He pulled absolutely NO punches.

And thank god for that. I'm glad he's angry. And I'm glad he showed it. That was a really, REALLY cathartic speech. Love that he called out Congress, too, for blocking any reform on this issue.

Honestly, as defeated as we may all feel right now, I can't help but feel, in the way back of my mind, that eventually we may start to see something change. I really think the pro-gun side should start paying serious attention, because I do sense that eventually, there is going to be a point where the scales are tipped so far that people will finally get legit fed up with the NRA and their ilk and tell them to just fuck off.

I know that seems unbelievable, especially considering Sandy Hook didn't seem to change things, but I have heard about individuals working in recent years to get some sort of movement going (including some of the people who've been intimately affected by some of these mass shootings) and as Obama himself noted, a good percentage of Americans do support changes to our gun laws. So I think the seeds for serious change are there. It's just a matter of pushing to make them a reality.

Maybe that's just my idealistic side talking again, too, trying to grasp at some sort of hope and optimism I can find after this horrible news. I dunno. But it's something I certainly would like to see happen (though, obviously, without yet another mass shooting accompanying the notable change).

The way these events seem to be upticking in frequency, I'm left with the feeling that America has a lot more than just a gun problem (although better regulation would indeed be a much needed panacea there).

Indeed. The fact that it very often seems to be men, most of whom are young, carrying out these shooting sprees, should tell us something about our culture of masculinity, too, and the negative effects that come from that. Women have occasionally carried out mass shooting sprees, too, yes, but not anywhere near as often as men do.

And regarding the comments from our Australian posters here...see, that is one of SO many things I do not get about this issue. If our allies, the people we're supposed to trust and listen to, think we've got a problem with this issue, shouldn't that be TELLING us something? I know our country's got a very individualistic mindset and all, but good lord, our allies are there for a reason. And we can learn things from them. Lots of things.

I just want to cry, I feel so defeated right now.

 

[Salome]

It is inevitable that the US will move towards stricter gun regulation.
You can't try to rationalize insanity forever.

The people who are responsible for preventing that moment to be tomorrow instead of yesterday should be utterly disgusted with themselves though.

I have to spend 2 weeks in the US later this year for work and I am fucking dreading it.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Indeed. The fact that it very often seems to be men, most of whom are young, carrying out these shooting sprees, should tell us something about our culture of masculinity, too, and the negative effects that come from that. Women have occasionally carried out mass shooting sprees, too, yes, but not anywhere near as often as men do.

To be honest, that wasn't entirely what I was thinking of... I mean I'm sure it's a factor, but there was a culture of masculinity 40 years ago too. Something else is going on. There are people with nothing to lose (or who think they have nothing to lose).