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Old 06-14-2016, 10:09 PM   #921
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Old 06-14-2016, 10:10 PM   #922
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Another vigil today, this time at UCF.

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Old 06-14-2016, 10:13 PM   #923
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So lovely to see these vigils and tributes everywhere . Always nice to be reminded there's still good, caring, supportive people in the world.
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Old 06-14-2016, 10:17 PM   #924
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I wasn't suggesting Nawaz wasn't a 'real' Muslim, just that he and his opinions stink.
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Old 06-14-2016, 10:24 PM   #925
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I wasn't suggesting Nawaz wasn't a 'real' Muslim, just that he and his opinions stink.

Fair enough, that's the general critique of Nawaz from the left side of things.

I'm curious as to what you find disagreeable about his thoughts on Islamism, though


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Old 06-14-2016, 10:54 PM   #926
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ongoing mass shootings thread

I've been fairly numb to this incident. I suppose my left brain tells me that a shooting can happen anywhere, and people in Paris were murdered in cafes and at rock concerts, and that I'm no more or less safe than I was on Friday night when I was drinking beer with friends in a rooftop gay bar on a gorgeous summer evening during Pride weekend. This particular event hits an intensely sensitive issue for me -- guns. Fewer things incense me more than the gun lobby, and their supporters, and even so-called "responsible" owners who refuse any responsibility let alone connection to an event like this. It's been easy for me to process this as yet another senseless gun tragedy. Yes, I wonder what I would do if a gunman armed with a legally processed AR-15 came into a big gay club I'm often found at on weekends. Would I get out? Be trapped in a bathroom? Play dead? Get shot in the head and be actual dead before my brains splatter on the floor? But I wonder these things about a workplace shooting. Such is life in an America where a small but powerful group holds us all hostage to a perverted notion of "freedom." I'd like to be free of that fear, please.

But witnessing the continued, heartfelt, highly emotional expressions of grief by my fellow LGBTQers in my FB feed makes me realize that by centering this around guns I'm guilty of an erasure of the specifically LGBTQ mass murder that took place. We've been bashed in Philadelphia, we've been murdered in New Orleans, we've been thrown off buildings in Syria executed in Iran and thrown into ovens in Auschwitz. There was mass death via plague in the 1980s and 1990s. I was having trouble connecting Saturday to those events, and also locating myself in any and all of those narratives. I'm white, male, educated, urban, salaried, married -- it's easy to not feel particularly oppressed (though was a journey to get here ... self-acceptance occasionally slips away).

I've also found myself listening to Hamilton, loudly, repeatedly, emotionally, and my only tears so far were during LMM's Tony acceptance speech where he said "love is love is love is love is love is love." The power of that music and my response was indication that there's something I've been avoiding.

In the way that a gun takes away your right to life in the most unfair way possible, this is a reminder that some view us as inherently unworthy of life as well. Safe spaces can be destroyed. We are still not safe. Indeed, no one really is, but we are not safe for a reason different than that of a straight person. We are still a feared minority, we are still objects of loathing (perhaps even by some of our own) because of who we are. No matter how high you rise, how many privileges you are afforded in other avenues of life, you are still just a faggot or dyke or tranny in some eyes. And less than human.

This is a major LGBTQ tragedy. It's our tragedy. I'd been avoiding that. I won't any longer.
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Old 06-14-2016, 11:15 PM   #927
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I wish people would stop distributing this rumor that the shooter was gay. Such a headline feels like we've stepped back 20 years, and we are somehow shaming him or his kind by laughing at his potential sexuality.

The fact that he had been to the bar several times and used gay social media just as much supports the idea that he's maniacal and was plotting this act. Maybe he was repressed and self hating, I don't know. But until a guy comes out and says he engaged in some form of homosexual act with him, I wish people would stop accusing that. I don't know if I'm saying this correctly or not. But yeah, I'd like to imagine he wasn't gay. So maybe I have a bias there.

But something I've always hated is the labeling of people based upon indirect evidence (i.e. flamboyance or a high voice).
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Old 06-14-2016, 11:45 PM   #928
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ongoing mass shootings thread

It just came out tonight that Disney's sophisticated security alerted the FBI when they detected Omar casing their locations in Orlando back in April.

The FBI has a lot to answer for.


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Old 06-14-2016, 11:59 PM   #929
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It just came out tonight that Disney's sophisticated security alerted the FBI when they detected Omar casing their locations in Orlando back in April.

The FBI has a lot to answer for.


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Link? From what I've read, this is alerting the FBI post-shooting. Not pre-shooting.
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Old 06-15-2016, 12:00 AM   #930
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I wish people would stop distributing this rumor that the shooter was gay. Such a headline feels like we've stepped back 20 years, and we are somehow shaming him or his kind by laughing at his potential sexuality.

The fact that he had been to the bar several times and used gay social media just as much supports the idea that he's maniacal and was plotting this act. Maybe he was repressed and self hating, I don't know. But until a guy comes out and says he engaged in some form of homosexual act with him, I wish people would stop accusing that. I don't know if I'm saying this correctly or not. But yeah, I'd like to imagine he wasn't gay. So maybe I have a bias there.

But something I've always hated is the labeling of people based upon indirect evidence (i.e. flamboyance or a high voice).
I would normally agree! Particularly when it comes to mental illness. But I think it has relevance in this case - because if this person was someone who was in the closet, had used gay apps, been a regular at the club, etc, if this person was gay, then I think it adds to the discussion around just how heteronormative our society is, and how frowned upon homosexuality still is, whether it's in religion or not.

Going on from Irvine's excellent, wonderful post above, perhaps there's a discussion to be had that society still deems homosexuality as unacceptable, and that that fact eventually drove a closeted gay man to murder a room full of LGBT people in an LGBT club.

Perhaps, if as a society we didn't constantly diminish homosexuality, this man may have felt more comfortable in his own skin and not murdered 50 people. If the homophobia that we try to sweep under the carpet didn't exist, maybe those 50 people would still be alive today.
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Old 06-15-2016, 03:28 AM   #931
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I wish people would stop distributing this rumor that the shooter was gay. Such a headline feels like we've stepped back 20 years, and we are somehow shaming him or his kind by laughing at his potential sexuality.

The fact that he had been to the bar several times and used gay social media just as much supports the idea that he's maniacal and was plotting this act. Maybe he was repressed and self hating, I don't know. But until a guy comes out and says he engaged in some form of homosexual act with him, I wish people would stop accusing that. I don't know if I'm saying this correctly or not. But yeah, I'd like to imagine he wasn't gay. So maybe I have a bias there.

But something I've always hated is the labeling of people based upon indirect evidence (i.e. flamboyance or a high voice).
I kinda echo this sentiment. For me using those apps, scoutin gthe club, doesn't indicate he's gay at all. It indicates intricate planning... sure, if he actually dated guys on that app, that could change things. But if he just used it to scout familiar faces, find the best place they hang out so he could do his job there... it has nothing to do with his own sexuality and everything with his insanity.
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Old 06-15-2016, 03:46 AM   #932
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I wrote a similar post but just didn't know how to word it. I don't want to come off as combatant, as quite frankly I do not care about the fine details at the moment. But I suppose I do want to put this out there.

Gay social media apps tend to be very shallow. You're on there for a date, or you're on there for sex. You're not on there to find out what the cool gay clubs are. Exactly what GG says -- from someone with experience using these things -- nobody asks such a question. It is so incredibly uncommon... so much so that it's no coincidence.

As for him being a frequent customer... everything I've heard from original sources of the articles suggest that he'd been there before. They seem to have warped it into a thing of 'years' or calling him a 'regular.' I haven't seen anyone say that. I've heard that he'd been before, and that he was offish while there. And that he'd told people he had a wife and kids. And that he was at times belligerent. And that he drank alone. Nothing to do with dancing or enjoying himself. It sounds to me like he was plotting and hated everyone there.

This doesn't mean he's not gay either. But I fear this is a media narrative, based upon misconstrued and otherwise soft evidence.
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Old 06-15-2016, 04:21 AM   #933
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Jumping too hard at that narrative makes it too easy for Oregopa's SUV episode to blame his parents (I haven't clicked it because I really have no interest in watching it, but I keep seeing links to some video his father supposedly posted about god punishing homosexuals) or be like "see this is because Islam!"
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:52 AM   #934
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This thing seems to be more Columbine than Bataclan.

It's the perfect shit storm or very possible issue surrounding gun violence. Only thing we're missing is a history of playing violent video games.

It's certainly possible, and looking more and more likely, that his motivations included religion, shame over his true self, the disgraceful and continuing homophobia both in our nation and especially within organized religion, his father, and mental illness. Everyone wants to pick one, but it's all if the above.

The one thing that ties it all together is, still, the guns. Without access to this kind of weaponry he wouldn't have been able to do any of this. Period.
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Old 06-15-2016, 12:05 PM   #935
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This thing seems to be more Columbine than Bataclan.

It's the perfect shit storm or very possible issue surrounding gun violence. Only thing we're missing is a history of playing violent video games.

It's certainly possible, and looking more and more likely, that his motivations included religion, shame over his true self, the disgraceful and continuing homophobia both in our nation and especially within organized religion, his father, and mental illness. Everyone wants to pick one, but it's all if the above.

The one thing that ties it all together is, still, the guns. Without access to this kind of weaponry he wouldn't have been able to do any of this. Period.
Pretty much sums it up .

Your post does bring up one of the big reasons why it's so hard to actually get anywhere with these sorts of tragedies-there's a lot of factors involved, and people don't seem to know how to really juggle or deal with all of them. People seem to think that if you bring up the gun issue, somehow that means you don't care about religious extremism, or if you mention the mental illness (if that's a factor, and that's not always easy to pinpoint or discuss because of the stigma that still surrounds the issue) that somehow means you're excusing the shooter, or don't care about any other issues tied to the situation. It's like people can't comprehend the idea that it IS possible to be concerned about all the issues, and that even if your focus is heavily on one in particular, that doesn't mean you're disregarding or refusing to acknowledge the other factors.

(General "you" applying here, by the way.)

Plus, there's the obvious fact that it's just easier, or feels easier, at least, to fix a problem if it can be narrowed down to one main issue.

On that note, in terms of other issues that would be interesting to address, I'd like to hear more discussion about why it's young men who often seem to commit these sorts of crimes. A few women have gone on shooting sprees in the past, of course, but this sort of crime tends to be heavily male-oriented, and I think that speaks to some societal and cultural aspects of how a "real man" should act that don't get talked about nearly enough.
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Old 06-15-2016, 01:23 PM   #936
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Link? From what I've read, this is alerting the FBI post-shooting. Not pre-shooting.

Came from an Orlando local affiliate WFTV reporter Karla Ray. Came from a law enforcement source. Still probably vetting the story before it goes live on the site.


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Old 06-15-2016, 01:41 PM   #937
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Came from an Orlando local affiliate WFTV reporter Karla Ray. Came from a law enforcement source. Still probably vetting the story before it goes live on the site.


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How did you hear it before it's gone live?
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Old 06-15-2016, 02:26 PM   #938
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A tweet from Karla Ray. I used to work in a local news affiliate. The News Director is probably working with her to follow up leads and contact the FBI. I'm sure as a young reporter she will face some deflection from the FBI and Disney as they scramble to get their talking points in order over what can be an embarrassing development. At this point it's out in the media ether so we will if more national correspondents can get harder answers quicker.


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Old 06-15-2016, 02:38 PM   #939
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You were part of the mistrusted enemy now I get it, you're just trying to get on Trump's good side before he shuts you all down. Covering your ass, very smart.

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Old 06-15-2016, 02:41 PM   #940
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A tweet from Karla Ray. I used to work in a local news affiliate. The News Director is probably working with her to follow up leads and contact the FBI. I'm sure as a young reporter she will face some deflection from the FBI and Disney as they scramble to get their talking points in order over what can be an embarrassing development. At this point it's out in the media ether so we will if more national correspondents can get harder answers quicker.


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