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Old 09-17-2013, 02:47 PM   #21
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Perhaps this thread should be called the Ongoing exploitation of tragedies to advance old political agendas.

More gun control, nationalized health care and even sequester budget cuts have all been tied to this event. Unfortunately, these claims are not supported by the facts of this incident.

The AR-15 was the first political target. Despite being functionally the same as most rifles, the AR-15 gets elevated as a causal factor in this incident. Now, once some facts are examined, it appears Aaron Alexis had only a shotgun. And it is not clear if he even fired the shotgun. Alexis stole weapons (handguns) from guards at the Navy Yard and used those in his attack. An AR-15 was never in the equation.

Of course, when discussion the assault rifles, no one ever mentions the 1.5 to 3.2 Million AR-15s (estimates of the number of AR-15s in the US vary greatly) that have not and never been used in a crime. If something is used lawfully on such a wide scale basis, it cannot inherently be the cause of a problem.

Healthcare was next on the political agenda with claims that the absence of mental health was a causal factor in the incident. Facts now show that not only did Aaron Alexis have access to mental health care, he utilized it. Availability and treatment did not prevent this tragedy.

There are plenty of different factors that contributed to this event and as long as we stick to a couple of broad political brush strokes, we will never find a solution to this problem.
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Old 09-17-2013, 02:59 PM   #22
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people do say this all the time. but there is a baffling (to me) gun culture in the US, and, in my opinion, a warped understanding of what we mean by the word "freedom."

the vast majority of gun owners are responsible and law abiding. the vast majority of mentally ill people do not go on shooting rampages.

yet this happens here. frequently.

i'm almost done reading Freedom, and some of this makes sense:

Quote:
“It’s all circling around the same problem of personal liberties,” Walter said. “People came to this country for either money or freedom. If you don’t have money, you cling to your freedoms all the more angrily. Even if smoking kills you, even if you can’t afford to feed your kids, even if your kids are getting shot down by maniacs with assault rifles. You may be poor, but the one thing nobody can take away from you is the freedom to fuck up your life whatever way you want to.”
― Jonathan Franzen, Freedom
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Old 09-17-2013, 03:00 PM   #23
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So basically do nothing. We've done that and it's working out great.

I've accepted that this is a way of life here in the states. Even the simplist most common sense regulations are fought as some crime against liberty.

And yet I kind of see the Russian side/shot at us....we always hear in media how great we are. Yet these types of killings happen over and over.

While there are very few places, if any I'd trade to live, it definitely is a black eye
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Old 09-17-2013, 03:03 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post
Perhaps this thread should be called the Ongoing exploitation of tragedies to advance old political agendas.

More gun control, nationalized health care and even sequester budget cuts have all been tied to this event. Unfortunately, these claims are not supported by the facts of this incident.

The AR-15 was the first political target. Despite being functionally the same as most rifles, the AR-15 gets elevated as a causal factor in this incident. Now, once some facts are examined, it appears Aaron Alexis had only a shotgun. And it is not clear if he even fired the shotgun. Alexis stole weapons (handguns) from guards at the Navy Yard and used those in his attack. An AR-15 was never in the equation.

Of course, when discussion the assault rifles, no one ever mentions the 1.5 to 3.2 Million AR-15s (estimates of the number of AR-15s in the US vary greatly) that have not and never been used in a crime. If something is used lawfully on such a wide scale basis, it cannot inherently be the cause of a problem.

Healthcare was next on the political agenda with claims that the absence of mental health was a causal factor in the incident. Facts now show that not only did Aaron Alexis have access to mental health care, he utilized it. Availability and treatment did not prevent this tragedy.

There are plenty of different factors that contributed to this event and as long as we stick to a couple of broad political brush strokes, we will never find a solution to this problem.


and yet a mentally ill person shot a bunch of people a few miles from where i live with a variety of weapons. he has a long record of mental illness as well as criminal issues related to gun crimes.

but mental health and guns and the enforcement of gun laws aren't the issue here.

what, pray tell, is?
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Old 09-17-2013, 04:55 PM   #25
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mental health and guns
Some how - some way - we have to keep this deadly combination from occurring.

If you are a gun enthusiast, why in the world would you not want to do everything you can to prevent this marriage? Almost every one of the atrocities is committed by a mentally sick man with a gun. If you don't want the government to take your guns, then you should support the efforts to make certain that guns do not fall into the hands of the mentally ill.

Background checks and mental health evaluations must be a part of the equation.
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Old 09-17-2013, 05:01 PM   #26
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Notable pompous asshole Pierce Morgan last night used the shooting to go on a rant about how evil and horrible AR-15's are. He had a psychiatrist and was basically baiting the guy trying to get him to say its the guns that are making these things happen. And thats not what the guy was saying at all. He was saying the mental health system is to blame. And then Morgan repeatedly kept twisting his words and rephrasing the questions to get him to say what he wanted to say. It was really pathetic to watch.

Oh and wait, this guy didn't use an AR-15? He used a shotgun?? Shit are shotguns even legal in DC? that's surprising.
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Old 09-17-2013, 05:25 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post
Perhaps this thread should be called the Ongoing exploitation of tragedies to advance old political agendas.
Most of the people making this claim exploited the "debt crisis" to advance the political agenda of "prevent Barack Obama's re-election at all costs." So forgive me if I'm relatively dismissive of them on face value.
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:11 PM   #28
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Sorry but this "assault weapon" language is all bullshit. It's made up to demonize scary-looking guns that have the same function and are NO MORE lethal than non-"assault weapons." Not to mention that they are used the LEAST in these mass shootings.





I think it's just because the scary-looking guns are BLACK , isn't it???
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:50 PM   #29
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This guy used a shotgun so all the other shootings never happened. Sure. Whatever. Okay, guys. Wrap it up and go home ALL THE WEAPONS ARE GOOD.
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:42 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
Notable pompous asshole Pierce Morgan last night used the shooting to go on a rant about how evil and horrible AR-15's are. He had a psychiatrist and was basically baiting the guy trying to get him to say its the guns that are making these things happen. And thats not what the guy was saying at all. He was saying the mental health system is to blame. And then Morgan repeatedly kept twisting his words and rephrasing the questions to get him to say what he wanted to say. It was really pathetic to watch.

Oh and wait, this guy didn't use an AR-15? He used a shotgun?? Shit are shotguns even legal in DC? that's surprising.

I agree that Piers Morgan is an idiot.
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:44 PM   #31
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Sorry but this "assault weapon" language is all bullshit. It's made up to demonize scary-looking guns that have the same function and are NO MORE lethal than non-"assault weapons." Not to mention that they are used the LEAST in these mass shootings.



I think it's just because the scary-looking guns are BLACK , isn't it???

They sure do a number on 1st graders.
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:16 PM   #32
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They sure do a number on 1st graders.
So would any other modern firearm. Including the 2 pistols that "person" was carrying.
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:23 PM   #33
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In fact, between 1982-2012 mass shootings semi-automatic pistols have been used almost 3 times more than rifles, shotguns, and revolvers.

So why not ban pistols before these so-called "assault weapons?"
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:57 PM   #34
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U.S. Navy was warned that Washington shooter 'heard voices'

By Phil Stewart and Scott Malone

WASHINGTON/BOSTON (Reuters) - Rhode Island police warned the U.S. Navy last month that Washington Navy Yard gunman Aaron Alexis had reported "hearing voices," raising further questions about how he gained security clearance at the complex where he went on a shooting rampage.

Officials say Alexis, a Navy contractor and former Navy reservist, opened fire at the Naval Sea Systems Command on Monday, killing 12 people before police shot him dead.

The shooting - a mile and a half from the U.S. Capitol and three miles from the White House - sent shockwaves through Washington.

The Pentagon said it would review security at military installations around the world and the White House promised to review standards for federal government contractors.

A Defense Department Inspector General's report published on Tuesday revealed security lapses that allowed 52 convicted felons to gain access to Navy facilities because budget cuts had undermined vetting.

Meanwhile, the U.S. capital paused to remember the victims, aged 46 to 73, who included retirees, parents and a bird lover.

Police in Newport, Rhode Island, were so concerned about Alexis' behavior on a business trip there in August that they alerted Navy police.

Alexis told police he believed people were following him and "sending vibrations into his body," according to a Newport police report.

He told police that he had twice moved hotels to avoid the noise he heard coming through the floor and the ceiling of his rooms, and that the people following him were using "some sort of microwave machine" to prevent him from sleeping.

"Based on the naval base implications and the claim that the involved subject, one (Aaron Alexis) was 'hearing voices,' I made contact with the on-duty Naval Station police," a Newport police officer wrote, adding that he faxed his report of the incident to Navy police.

The Newport police report said Navy police had promised to check if Alexis was in fact a naval base contractor.

Asked for comment, a spokesman said the Navy was looking into the matter, without confirming any details.

In addition, CNN reported that Alexis had contacted two Veterans Administration hospitals recently and was believed to be seeking psychological help.

"Initial reports indicate that this is an individual who may have had some mental health problems," U.S. President Barack Obama told Spanish-language network Telemundo.

"The fact that we do not have a firm enough background check system is something that makes us more vulnerable to these kinds of mass shootings."

The Navy gave Alexis an honorable discharge despite a series of eight to 10 misconduct charges, ranging from traffic offenses to disorderly conduct.

SECURITY CLEARANCE

Using a valid pass as an information technology contractor with a private company, Alexis entered the Naval Sea Systems Command headquarters with a shotgun - bought legally in Virginia - and gained access to a handgun after he started firing, officials said.

He started picking off victims in a cafeteria from a fourth-floor atrium, witnesses said. Eight people were hurt, three with gunshot wounds, before Alexis was killed in a gun battle with police.

A U.S. defense official said a National Agency Check, a type of background check, was completed on Alexis in August 2007 and he was determined eligible to handle "secret" material in March 2008. Such clearances are valid for 10 years, meaning Alexis had no need to renew his.

Alexis' employer said it had enlisted a service to make what appeared to be two standard, employment background checks on him over the past year, finding only a traffic violation while twice confirming his "secret"-level security clearance with the U.S. Defense Department.

"The latest background check and security clearance confirmation were in late June of 2013 and revealed no issues other than one minor traffic violation," The Experts, an information technology company, said in a statement.

Alexis was arrested on September 4, 2010, in Fort Worth, Texas, on a misdemeanor charge of discharging a firearm. He was also arrested in Seattle in 2004 for shooting out a construction worker's car tires in an anger-fueled "blackout" triggered by perceived "disrespect," police said. In 2008, he was cited for disorderly conduct in DeKalb County, Georgia, when he was kicked out of a club for damaging furnishings and cursing.

In each case, the charges were dropped.

People who knew Alexis said they were shocked by the shooting, describing him as a lover of Thai culture who worshipped at a Buddhist temple in Texas, although one acquaintance told reporters he had an unnatural affection for violent video games.

The Navy Yard was closed to all but essential personnel on Tuesday. Military police were stationed at the four entrances, checking the identifications of the employees who were being allowed back in. Other personnel milled around outside, hoping to retrieve cars that remained locked inside the gates.

"I've never ever felt unsafe at this place," said David Berlin, a civilian who works at the Navy Yard as an assistant program manager building weapons systems. "If someone wants to skirt the rules, they can do that, but you trust your colleagues."

(Additional reporting by Mark Hosenball, Deborah Charles, Ian Simpson, and Alina Selyukh; Writing by Daniel Trotta; editing by Christopher Wilson)
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:16 PM   #35
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In fact, between 1982-2012 mass shootings semi-automatic pistols have been used almost 3 times more than rifles, shotguns, and revolvers.

So why not ban pistols before these so-called "assault weapons?"

I'm fine with banning all of those.
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:06 AM   #36
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There's just that pesky second amendment in the way
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:10 AM   #37
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I'm fine with banning all of those.
That will never happen. The best bet is to make them more difficult to purchase for those with mental health issues and violent backgrounds.
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:47 AM   #38
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I'm so out of the loop and so on the opposite side of the globe here... but is cracking down hard on ammunition any sort of option?

Like, seriously? Fine, have your guns, have your bunker busting assault weapons, your pistols and rifles, whatever... but regulate the ammo within an inch of its life.

Yes, yes, I know, 3D printers... but mercifully for us all it's relatively early days there (and maybe not without its roadbumps).
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Old 09-18-2013, 08:12 AM   #39
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There's just that pesky second amendment in the way

We dont pay much attention to the 4th amendment, why is the 2nd so special, other than the fact that it has better lobbyists protecting a massive industry?
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Old 09-18-2013, 08:53 AM   #40
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We dont pay much attention to the 4th amendment
If "we" Americans weren't so ignorant of what this is, or how to apply it, "we" wouldn't have this problem.

Assuming that our 4th ammendment is being eroded by the government, if that was what you were alluding to.

Owning guns gives people the illusion that they are free. The 2nd amendment is clear cut. I can own guns, look how free I am. The 4th amendment is, like, I dunno a bunch of confusing legal stuff, or something. The 2nd amendment is a lot easier to understand and apply for your average couch-potato American.
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