ongoing mass shootings thread

[cobl04]

That's what it comes down to, hey. You put evidence in front of people and they reveal that they actually aren't concerned at all about changing your horrific gun culture, because they lose some ridiculous ideal of "personal liberty"

I'd love to see a graph of the amount of lives guns have saved (intruders, etc, whatever) vs the amount of lives lost in mass shootings that could be stopped with heavier laws.

[Moonlit_Angel]

I watch true crime stories from time to time, and it does often seem that a lot of the time with those stories, if a family has a gun (if not more) in their home, one or more of them winds up being killed by the very gun(s) they own. And usually they're killed by someone they know as well.

Certainly, there are intruders and random attacks that happen, of course. But it seems a lot of the pro-gun "it's for our protection!" people seem to forget that it's often the people you actually know personally who are most likely to hurt or kill you, and never consider the idea that be it an intruder or someone they know killing them, they can take your gun (especially if it's someone you know attacking and threatening you, since they would know where your guns are kept) and use it against you. And in that case...you're kind of SOL, aren't you?

I also get amused by the, "Just arm all the good guys with guns" argument because, well, aside from the fact that who the "good" guys are and who the "bad" guys are isn't always easy to discern, in seemingly almost every mass shooting thus far, one of these three scenarios wound up happening and were the reason the spree came to an end:

1. The killer committed suicide. Fat lot of good arming the "good guys" would do there, then, no?

2. Law enforcement officials killed them. Which makes sense. Because they're, y'know, TRAINED to do that. They can figure out how to aim at the shooter in ways that don't put innocent people in danger.

3. The killer was tackled, SANS WEAPON, by law enforcement officials/people caught in the crossfire/security guards, and held down until they were arrested and brought in peacefully.

It doesn't seem "random passerby pulling out a gun and shooting and killing the murderer in one go" seems to be a very likely scenario in those moments. So where the pro-gun rights side thinks this is even likely a necessary suggestion, I don't understand.

[cobl04]

[Moonlit_Angel]

Ha. Well put. Very, very well put.

[Axver]

Originally Posted by bono_212

I tried to point out the Australia thing to him and ask him why he thinks Americans are so inherently incapable of change if it works elsewhere...no answer.

As far as I can tell, American exceptionalism means that Americans find it exceptionally difficult to achieve productive change and reform.

[corianderstem]

I love my mom, but I had to restrain myself from getting into it on Facebook with her yesterday.

She's pretty right wing. Okay. But, surprisingly, she's pro-choice! Cool. But, she does not care for Planned Parenthood because she feels they've been "co-opted by the left." (We didn't get further into the conversation at the time, because my dad was in the room, and I don't do political debates with my dad, who thinks I'm in danger of being nuked living in Seattle.)

Now she's on Facebook saying she is a proud NRA member who supports her second amendment right to own a gun. (My folks own a gun. Okay. It doesn't thrill me, but okay.)

How she can hold the "co-opted" views on PP and not see the exact same thing with the NRA drives me crazy.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Yeah, I'm still trying to work this logic out on the right: We can't regulate/legalize gun usage because, hey, people are going to find ways to get guns no matter what, and it's not fair to blame responsible gun owners for their actions (even though nobody's done that, and if you are a responsible gun owner, then any gun control shouldn't be an issue for you to worry about at all, but whatever).

Then they turn around and say that we need to defund Planned Parenthood and regulate women's ability to get abortions, even though, going by their logic, women will still have (and have had) abortions even if it's made illegal and that organization is defunded.

So...yeah.

Originally Posted by Axver

As far as I can tell, American exceptionalism means that Americans find it exceptionally difficult to achieve productive change and reform.

Basically, we seem to think we don't need to listen to anyone else. We're the best! We can take care of things ourselves! Never mind the fact that we're a significantly young country compared to much of the rest of the world, and that it might behoove us to listen to the people who've been there, done that already.

We're like the little sibling that wants to prove they're a big kid now.

[Galeongirl]

I think what best describes on how we feel about the US gun laws would be... well, just the news showed a clip on mr Trump's response to the drama.. claiming that if the people in the school had guns they'd be a lot better off than they were now.

Exactly how the hell is that an appropriate response to such a drama? It's like salt in the wounds of the victims and people are LOVING it. What the heck man, what the heck?

Obama's response was far more sensible, and I do realise that a lot of people in the US are sharing his thoughts... but the general idea that we here have of the US is more like Trump.

[Salome]

If everyone in the school had a rocket launcher then they really could have ended it quickly.

[deep]

and they would have something of value for all their college debt

[deep]

we had a chance to move on and stop talking about this loser that killed 9 unarmed people


but law enforcement ruined it


Police: ‘They were going to come on campus and shoot and kill as many people as possible’ - The Washington Post

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by Galeongirl

I think what best describes on how we feel about the US gun laws would be... well, just the news showed a clip on mr Trump's response to the drama.. claiming that if the people in the school had guns they'd be a lot better off than they were now.

Exactly how the hell is that an appropriate response to such a drama? It's like salt in the wounds of the victims and people are LOVING it. What the heck man, what the heck?

I always want these people to try saying this stuff to the victims' families' faces. Say "Let's just arm everyone!" to the parents who lost children in Sandy Hook. See how well their cavalier attitudes would be received.

Originally Posted by Galeongirl

Obama's response was far more sensible, and I do realise that a lot of people in the US are sharing his thoughts... but the general idea that we here have of the US is more like Trump.

Ergh. That's embarrassing. And I'm sorry for that.

[cobl04]

I'm currently in a FB argument with Americans about this hahaha I'm loving it.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by cobl04

I'm currently in a FB argument with Americans about this hahaha I'm loving it.

Arguing with gun nuts is proof positive that gun nuts are exactly the kind of people who should have their guns confiscated.

It's a vicious circle.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Pretty much. As I said above, if you're a genuinely responsible gun owner, then you shouldn't have to worry about the regulations and restrictions affecting your ability to keep your gun(s).

cobl, feel free to share any notable aspects of your debate if and when you want ! I'm alternately curious and terrified to see how they react to some of your arguments.

[cobl04]

Looks like the post has been deleted unfortunately but it was fun while it lasted. One bloke told me it wouldn't work in America citing population stats. Another told me the government is trying to ban all guns, which was a nice ego boost for me as I clearly knew more about the situation than her, an actual American (unless I've got it wrong? But no one is suggesting all guns should be banned..? They aren't here, we're just not fucking idiots). One told me that my views weren't representative of my town which I just had a huge LOL at because the people in this country who think that our gun laws are too restrictive would be fucking minuscule, like 0.0001 per cent or something.

The frightening aspect (and it truly is frightening, to the point where you kind of have to joke about it a bit because the reality is really scary) is the gun nuts. As Angela above has said millions of times, if you are are responsible gun owner then you wouldn't be pissed off. My dad's best mate has like 15 guns. He's got gigantic pistols tattooed on both his forearms. He was just in America for some state championship shooting thing. But he's completely on-side with our gun laws.

[Irvine511]

There is an enormous urban/rural divide in this issue in the US, as there are in many issues. There's also an ingrained distrust of government. There are real cultural differences not just between the US and other countries, but within the US. And the amount of people here who likely think our present laws are insane is, like, 150 million.

What's disturbing is the lack of political will to do anything. The NRA is probably the most powerful lobby in the US. And guns are an issue that some people vote on -- especially in the primaries. Politicians fear the gun lobby. If Sandy Hook didn't create momentum for change, I honestly don't know what will.

My Facebook feed is virtually all anti-gun. I have one good friend who is a gun owner who I spar with (off-line) but even he agrees in some gun control and dislikes the NRA. There are many different countries within this country.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by cobl04

One bloke told me it wouldn't work in America citing population stats.

I don't understand how they figure that.

(It's especially odd since our attitude about our country is that we can supposedly make anything happen.)

Originally Posted by cobl04

Another told me the government is trying to ban all guns, which was a nice ego boost for me as I clearly knew more about the situation than her, an actual American (unless I've got it wrong? But no one is suggesting all guns should be banned..? They aren't here, we're just not fucking idiots).

You're right. Nobody is suggesting that, aside from perhaps a few particularly extreme anti-gun people. But most gun control supporters are fully aware that there are responsible gun owners out there, there are people who like to hunt and want a gun in their home for protection and things of that sort, and we're more than willing to accept and allow that. That's fine.

All we ask is that you prove that you're capable of handling a gun properly before you own one. Really not that much to ask, I shouldn't think.

And there may be CERTAIN types of guns that people feel don't seem logical for your average citizen to own. That does not, however, equal to denying people the right to own a gun, period.

Originally Posted by cobl04

As Angela above has said millions of times, if you are are responsible gun owner then you wouldn't be pissed off. My dad's best mate has like 15 guns. He's got gigantic pistols tattooed on both his forearms. He was just in America for some state championship shooting thing. But he's completely on-side with our gun laws.

Exactly! Hell, I would think any responsible gun owner worth their salt would be VERY supportive of gun control, if for no other reason than the fact that, if I were a responsible gun owner, for instance, I'd be REALLY pissed off at seeing people abusing and misusing the right to own a gun and making us all look bad. I wouldn't want any half-brained idiot grabbing a gun and going on a shooting spree 'cause, hey, Second Amendment, woo! No. I'd want to know that I'm surrounded by gun owners who know what the hell they're doing with such a serious weapon.

But maybe your dad's friend and I are just weird that way ?

[zuma]

I found this a pretty interesting read on why it's so difficult to implement a change:

Why Obama is powerless to reform gun laws
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34429918



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[cobl04]

This was actually a pretty sobering read. Spare me this sanctimonious Australian self-congratulation after US gun massacres | Jason Wilson | Comment is free | The Guardian