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Old 03-20-2004, 06:31 PM   #1
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One year on...

Today is the one year anniversary of the beginning of the war against Iraq. There have been demonstrations around the world, including one of over 50,000 people in London and over 300,000 in Rome, to mark the anniversary.



This picture is from London, showing two Greenpeace protestors who climbed to the top of Big Ben, demanding that Blair finally tell the truth about the war.



This is from Hungary and I think it's one of the most beautiful anti-war images I've seen. It's so powerful to see people uniting against the barbarity of war and in support of peace and dignity for people everywhere. If anyone happens to see a larger copy of the picture anywhere could you possibly post a link here, I'd really love to see it.



This is from Santiago, Chile. The banner reads "no to war, no to terrorism."

Please, today, take a moment to think of the more than 10,000 Iraqi citizens who have been killed in the last year. It doesn't matter if you agreed with the war or not, just take a moment to think about the human cost of the war and the occupation.
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Old 03-20-2004, 06:33 PM   #2
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All the innocent people who have died.

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Old 03-20-2004, 07:30 PM   #3
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Thanks for the pix, Fizz. All of the people who've lost their lives.......yes, I'm thinking of them.
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Old 03-20-2004, 08:24 PM   #4
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Originally posted by verte76
Thanks for the pix, Fizz. All of the people who've lost their lives.......yes, I'm thinking of them.
I think of the innocent people who's best option on the morning of 9/11 was to jump out of a 110 story building to their death.

I also think of the innocent people in Saddam's tourture chambers and the innocent Kurds he gassed.

The US military goes to great pains to make sure that no innocent people are killed, unlike Al Queda and Saddam. That is what people should be protesting!
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Old 03-20-2004, 08:38 PM   #5
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Originally posted by wolfwill23


I think of the innocent people who's best option on the morning of 9/11 was to jump out of a 110 story building to their death.

I also think of the innocent people in Saddam's tourture chambers and the innocent Kurds he gassed.
Oh, I'm thinking about them also. It's not like people who were imprisoned, tortured and gassed by Saddam didn't matter. The victims of 9/11 certainly did matter. My avatar is a painting I did to pay tribute to the victims of the Istanbul terrorist attacks, and I'm currently working on a tribute to the victims of the Madrid attacks. I do not believe anyone is suggesting that these lost lives didn't matter. Rather, the sentiment is that *if* war is ever a necessity, it's a sad one. I think that's all we're trying to say. There's no sense in saying it's good, great and wonderful when it's clearly not.
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Old 03-20-2004, 09:20 PM   #6
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So, is the world a better place without Saddam?
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Old 03-20-2004, 09:45 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by wolfwill23


I think of the innocent people who's best option on the morning of 9/11 was to jump out of a 110 story building to their death.

I also think of the innocent people in Saddam's tourture chambers and the innocent Kurds he gassed.

The US military goes to great pains to make sure that no innocent people are killed, unlike Al Queda and Saddam. That is what people should be protesting!
Once again quit trying to lump 9/ 11 in this.

I don't think there's anything wrong with people asking for the truth about the war.
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Old 03-20-2004, 10:01 PM   #8
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
So, is the world a better place without Saddam?
Is Iraq a better place right now? Sure Saddam's regime has been stopped but in its place we have suicide bombers and a country in chaos. The rest of the world may be better off but how are we going to fix what we started in Iraq and give the people there the better life we promised them a year ago? What they are living in right now is not what I call freedom.
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Old 03-20-2004, 10:06 PM   #9
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The Iraqi people certainly have more optimism for their country than we do.
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Old 03-21-2004, 12:38 AM   #10
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Originally posted by Bono's American Wife


Is Iraq a better place right now? Sure Saddam's regime has been stopped but in its place we have suicide bombers and a country in chaos. The rest of the world may be better off but how are we going to fix what we started in Iraq and give the people there the better life we promised them a year ago? What they are living in right now is not what I call freedom.

Poll: Iraqis say life better now
Tuesday, March 16, 2004 Posted: 6:21 AM EST (1121 GMT)


LONDON, England -- A majority of Iraqis believe life is better now than it was under Saddam Hussein, according to a poll by broadcasting organizations released to coincide with the first anniversary of the U.S.-led invasion.

And almost half -- 49 percent -- of those questioned believe the invasion of their country by U.S. and British troops was right, compared with 39 percent who said it was wrong.

The poll -- the first nationwide poll in Iraq since the war -- was commissioned by ABC of the U.S., Britain's BBC, Germany's ARD and Japan's NHK.

Some 57 percent of respondents said life was better now than under Saddam, against 19 percent who said it was worse and 23 percent who said it was about the same.
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Old 03-21-2004, 03:48 AM   #11
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Old 03-21-2004, 03:57 AM   #12
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There's actually another thread in FYM with a bit more debate about the war, maybe this discussion would be better off in there?

This is just a better version of the photo I posted before, just in case anyone else was as moved and inspired as I was by it.

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Old 03-21-2004, 05:39 AM   #13
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I like that. A lot.

I still don't understand how people can be offended by that symbol. One of the most beautiful symbols of our life. I remember a year ago people being offended by the peace sign because they supported the war.

Peace is peace. Everyone should support this symbol it doesn't matter what religion, if you supported the war of not etc everyone should support peace. We're going to have different opinions on how we achieve peace and that's OK.

Ok I'm sounding too much like a hippie now so I'll shut up.
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Old 03-21-2004, 12:12 PM   #14
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Originally posted by wolfwill23


I think of the innocent people who's best option on the morning of 9/11 was to jump out of a 110 story building to their death.

I also think of the innocent people in Saddam's tourture chambers and the innocent Kurds he gassed.

The US military goes to great pains to make sure that no innocent people are killed, unlike Al Queda and Saddam. That is what people should be protesting!
Exactly. Don't let someone else make you think this isn't a good comment.
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Old 03-21-2004, 12:38 PM   #15
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I will remember all...on both sides.
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Old 03-21-2004, 01:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
So, is the world a better place without Saddam?
Potentially yes. If democracy succeeds in Iraq, yes. If they adopt a system like that of Iran or Saudi Arabia, Iraq is screwed, and so is democracy all over the globe. I don't have a crystal ball to forsee what kind of government Iraq has this time next year. I'm nervous that prolonged fighting and instability will swing Iraqis into the camp of a "one, strong leader" who turns Iraq into an authoritarian Islamicist state a la Iran or Saudi Arabia. I think that's a possibility. I sincerely hope this doesn't happen. The last damn thing I want is to see fanatics lining up women who aren't wearing burqas and whipping them or whatever. But this is going on in Afghanistan, despite the overthrow of the Taliban. I wouldn't call Iraq "out of the woods" as far as certain political perils are concerned.
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Old 03-21-2004, 02:55 PM   #17
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Originally posted by verte76


Potentially yes. If democracy succeeds in Iraq, yes. If they adopt a system like that of Iran or Saudi Arabia, Iraq is screwed, and so is democracy all over the globe. I don't have a crystal ball to forsee what kind of government Iraq has this time next year. I'm nervous that prolonged fighting and instability will swing Iraqis into the camp of a "one, strong leader" who turns Iraq into an authoritarian Islamicist state a la Iran or Saudi Arabia. I think that's a possibility. I sincerely hope this doesn't happen. The last damn thing I want is to see fanatics lining up women who aren't wearing burqas and whipping them or whatever. But this is going on in Afghanistan, despite the overthrow of the Taliban. I wouldn't call Iraq "out of the woods" as far as certain political perils are concerned.
No matter what government evolves in Iraq, it will not be the government of Saddam which #1 constantly threatened the security and stability of the other countries in the region. #2 I doubt it would be worse domestically for Iraqi's if you understand what Saddam did while he was in power. #3 Iran today is not the Iran of 1979. The Conservatives have far less power there than they did in 1979, and the coming population boom in Iran will likely push them out. #4 From and international security perspective, I would prefer an Iran type government or Saudi type government to Saddam any day. That being said, I don't see Iraq developing an Iran style or Saudi style government.

While the Shia form 60% of the country, they are not so powerful that they can force the other 40% of the country into an extreme Islamist form of government. More importantly, the Shia of Iraq are not the Shia of Iran. Despite Saddam's brutality, Iraq under Saddam was the most Secular Arab country in the world. The Conservative Iraqi Shia's are not going to be able to undue that fact.

Ultimately, I think democracy will succeed in Iraq as long as serious divisions do not develop between the parties. Iraq does not have the same history of sectarian violence that the former Yugoslavia had despite their many differences. Saddam was brutal to everyone except a select group of Sunni's.
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Old 03-21-2004, 03:29 PM   #18
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No matter what government evolves in Iraq, it will not be the government of Saddam which #1 constantly threatened the security and stability of the other countries in the region. #2 I doubt it would be worse domestically for Iraqi's if you understand what Saddam did while he was in power. #3 Iran today is not the Iran of 1979. The Conservatives have far less power there than they did in 1979, and the coming population boom in Iran will likely push them out. #4 From and international security perspective, I would prefer an Iran type government or Saudi type government to Saddam any day. That being said, I don't see Iraq developing an Iran style or Saudi style government.

While the Shia form 60% of the country, they are not so powerful that they can force the other 40% of the country into an extreme Islamist form of government. More importantly, the Shia of Iraq are not the Shia of Iran. Despite Saddam's brutality, Iraq under Saddam was the most Secular Arab country in the world. The Conservative Iraqi Shia's are not going to be able to undue that fact.

Ultimately, I think democracy will succeed in Iraq as long as serious divisions do not develop between the parties. Iraq does not have the same history of sectarian violence that the former Yugoslavia had despite their many differences. Saddam was brutal to everyone except a select group of Sunni's.
The Sunnis could create problems also. The Wahhabists are Sunni. In fact, the terrorists busted for the bombing of the Shia mosque in Iraq were Wahhabists, some from Saudi Arabia and some from Iraq. Bin Laden's background is Wahhabist, and therefore Sunni also. However, he's worked with Shias also. I would hope that people of this type don't prevail in Iraq, but their presence is a worry for me. Trust me, I do not like these people. I don't want them to get any power. They worry me. They've gotten power in other countries with stability problems. Right now it looks like lack of stability is the main problem in Iraq. This is a hell of a scary problem.
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