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Old 10-19-2007, 11:56 AM   #401
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i never said anything about infallibility. i asked a simple question and you are making judgments. nobody is infallible, we all know that. i can't tell if you're trying to make fun of me or if you are serious. if you honest don't know then fine, that's all you had to say.

the apa doesn't even claim to be infallible. but there are certain studies which they will support.

would you trust medication that was not approved by the fda? and if you don't, does that necessarily mean that the fda is infallible? sheesh.
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Old 10-19-2007, 12:02 PM   #402
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Quote:
Originally posted by unico
nobody is infallible, we all know that. i can't tell if you're trying to make fun of me or if you are serious.

the apa doesn't even claim to be infallible.


would you trust medication that was not approved by the fda?

and if you don't, does that necessarily mean that the fda is infallible? sheesh.
No, I wasn't making fun of you.

Yes I'm glad we agree that APA isn't infallible, we may differ on this subject though-and most Americans may differ with the APA on this subject (if that were the case).

Yes even the FDA is fallible-agreed.

dbs
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Old 10-19-2007, 12:57 PM   #403
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What's the source for that research? I don't get what whoever wrote that means by "homophobia". That's a different meaning than what I understand that word to mean.
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Old 10-19-2007, 12:58 PM   #404
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Yes I'm glad we agree that APA isn't infallible, we may differ on this subject though-and most Americans may differ with the APA on this subject (if that were the case).


does the opinion of the American public matter at all? what matters is what science says and what psychiatry says.

all evidence points to a very strong link between biology and seuxal orientation. is there a "gay" gene? probably not, but this has nothing to do with the biological basis for sexual orientation. it's akin to people saying, "yeah, well prove to me that Jesus DIDN'T walk on water."

secondly, environmental factors are both important, yet utterly irrelevant. either way, it all remains UNCHOSEN. homosexuality is not a choice, nor is heterosexuality. the oft-repeated lies about overbearing mothers/distant fathers is demonstrably false, and it also seems likely that a gay male child is arguably going to draw his mother closer ("oh! you want to play piano?") and his father farther away ("why don't you care that the redskins are playing?"), but, firstly, none of this is anybody's fault, none of this can be improved by parenting "techniques" as espoused by Dobson, and besides, there's nothing about being gay that should make someone want to *correct* this.

this is the thing -- it's no different than the thread about the DNA guy who said that blacks are intellectually inferior to whites. you're positing that something has gone "wrong" when a gay person identifies as such, that the reality of same-sex attraction is an error, that it's correctable, and thusly that it is a matter of choice. and while all of that is demonstrably false, some people need to cling to these lies in order to justify their own homophobia and their continued support to politicians who deny the civil rights of gay people.
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:00 PM   #405
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When did you actively, by the full control of your own, decide to be straight?

Does there have to be a gene that you are hetero or homo to make it something you don't chose, and don't control yourself?

Does there have to be a gene that I am a huge U2 fan?
With U2 for example it would be hard to argue that it's the environment that makes me like it, as with my age group U2 isn't that hugely popular in Germany, and all of my environment that time wasn't into U2 at all. Still it's my absolute favorite.

Will they find a gene in my body that makes me a fan?

Will they necessarily have to find a gene with a gay person to say it's not an active decision, or may this be determined by other factors, without being consious? Is genes all we have got?

Maybe some biologist could say something here, but I'm afraid we don't have any.
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:03 PM   #406
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
When did you actively, by the full control of your own, decide to be straight?
Bingo- is there really any other question we have to ask?
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:29 PM   #407
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
When did you actively, by the full control of your own, decide to be straight?

.
My brother and I were both courted by older Gay men in our youth who encouraged us to be Gay-they lavished us with gifts, paticularily my brother.

We both made decisions not to be Gay. If we were raised differently we might of made different choices. So you can't rule out enviornment in one's sexual choices.

If you take a 6 year old boy going to a pro gay therapist because he doesn't like sports, that boy in search or quest of his idenity, might later identify himself as Gay- to please the people around him.

I think some people do make decisions to be Gay, granted some may be emotionally more predisposed to being Gay (gay guys always insist I'm gay-only gay guys and a very few women have suggested or asked but most think I'm an overly sensitive male) and I don't lose any sleep over it, however in the end , I think it is up to the indivual-this is why I think there are so many bi-sexual people.

In my observation and friendships with Bi Sexual people, I have concluded for the most part that: they have raging libios that they have refused to marshall and keep in check (free spirits-free thinkers) thereby increasing their closing ratios for conquests.

There you have my opinion kids, and this isn't senseless babble- having witnessed the Gay culture first hand and having grown up in and around the Gay and openly sexual lifestyles and culture of Southern Calif.

Got it?


thanks,

dbs
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:43 PM   #408
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You're making progress in discussing, that's nice.

I wouldn't ever say environment can't be a factor in each and every case, simply because I don't know, and because I'm not in that black&white kind of thinking. However, this is exactly the reason why I'm opposed to any anti-gay policies or attacks or the implication that either hetero- or homosexuality is choice. I would say for some people it can be, at least to some degree, be choice, and for others not.
But I've also heard of people entering relationships, even marriages, who then discovered that their focus was always on men, and their fantasies on how to approach any other man in that way. Eventually, they split up. Same with women.

It's similar with fetishes, I would say. Some people develop fetishes and you will probably won't find any "environmental factors" determining that fetish, and in other cases you will have some incident that can be pointed out as the key moment in that person's development.

And that's probably even stronger with gays, reinforced by what I read from e.g. Irvine and melon. Or do you think they just tell you something?

So you decided to be straight, and if you had any feelings toward men you probably would blame the both guys who approached you. But that doesn't go with everyone, as you can see here in the forum, for example.

I'm really curious who here is a kid.
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:45 PM   #409
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
You're making progress in discussing, that's nice.


I'm really curious who here is a kid.
anybody under 40 years of age


dbs
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:48 PM   #410
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Ah, forgot, your laws are different than those from the rest.
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:49 PM   #411
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Interesting thread guys.
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Old 10-19-2007, 02:00 PM   #412
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

We both made decisions not to be Gay. If we were raised differently we might of made different choices. So you can't rule out enviornment in one's sexual choices.
environment doesn't always play a factor.
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Old 10-19-2007, 02:03 PM   #413
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Quote:
Originally posted by unico


environment doesn't always play a factor.
and sometimes it does.
sometimes it even comes down to a choice.

or you can be Bi, pleasing everybody.

dbs
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Old 10-19-2007, 02:07 PM   #414
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i disagree. there are various stages in homosexual identity development. life is a long process of learning more about yourself as you go. it could take many years before an individual acknowledges who s/he is. that doesn't mean it is a choice. the same goes for ethnic/racial identity development, and all other psychosocial behaviors.
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Old 10-19-2007, 02:49 PM   #415
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
[B]

My brother and I were both courted by older Gay men in our youth who encouraged us to be Gay-they lavished us with gifts, paticularily my brother.

We both made decisions not to be Gay. If we were raised differently we might of made different choices. So you can't rule out enviornment in one's sexual choices.
i see. so you looked at these swarthy men, beautiful bodies, and thought you'd just love to have sex with them and develop relationships. you wanted to kiss them, to feel their scratchy beards up against your chin. you wanted to fall into bed with them and rest your head on his heaving, hairy chest. you wanted him to kiss you and hold you and to lube himself up and slide himself inside you and take you, over and over again, and then you'd shower and take a ride up to the vineyard where you'd spend the afternoon sampling wine, cheese and olives.

but then you decided, nah, i don't want to be gay.

OR did you look at the man and say, well, i'm not sexually attracted to men, so how could i possibly be straight?

you see diamond -- you didn't CHOOSE your non-attraction to men.

you've just totally rebutted yoruself.

which sounds kind of sexy.




[q]If you take a 6 year old boy going to a pro gay therapist because he doesn't like sports, that boy in search or quest of his idenity, might later identify himself as Gay- to please the people around him.[/q]




this would be genuinely funny, if we didn't have mountains of evidence of the gay people who've been rejected by their families or the fact that suicide is the #1 killer of gay teens.

really, being gay to please someone?

i could cry.
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Old 10-19-2007, 02:50 PM   #416
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Quote:
Originally posted by unico
i disagree. there are various stages in homosexual identity development. life is a long process of learning more about yourself as you go. it could take many years before an individual acknowledges who s/he is. that doesn't mean it is a choice. the same goes for ethnic/racial identity development, and all other psychosocial behaviors.


it's true -- i was bisexual for about 14 months back in 2002.
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Old 10-19-2007, 05:34 PM   #417
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Quote:
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this would be genuinely funny, if we didn't have mountains of evidence of the gay people who've been rejected by their families or the fact that suicide is the #1 killer of gay teens.

really, being gay to please someone?

i could cry.
This is something I think is important to remember. Why would someone choose to be gay? If given the choice, why would someone want to subject themselves to the problems homosexuals face in today's society?
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Old 10-19-2007, 06:25 PM   #418
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Exactly. My line of thinking has always been that your thoughts and feelings can't possibly be controlled-I don't believe people can really choose who they fall in love with. I honestly can't say I ever once was like, "Okay, I'm choosing to like this particular type of man with x qualities." There's just a certain type of guy I've always been attracted to. I can try to force myself to like the types of guys that millions of other girls fall over, that the general public deems to be "the hot ones", all I want, but if the feeling isn't there, it's never gonna be.

No, I believe that only your actions can be controlled. And to allow straight people to act on their love for each other while forcing gays to merely look on-I think that's just downright cruel.

Besides that, again I ask the question that begs to be asked, whether one's sexual orientation is genetic or whether it's a choice, why should it matter either way? People still shouldn't have the right to try and "change" you into what they think you should be. I thought we were done with the days where people forced you into relationships you didn't want to be in.

Angela
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Old 10-20-2007, 02:49 PM   #419
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


i see. so you looked at these swarthy men, beautiful bodies, and thought you'd just love to have sex with them and develop relationships. you wanted to kiss them, to feel their scratchy beards up against your chin. you wanted to fall into bed with them and rest your head on his heaving, hairy chest. you wanted him to kiss you and hold you and to lube himself up and slide himself inside you and take you, over and over again, and then you'd shower and take a ride up to the vineyard where you'd spend the afternoon sampling wine, cheese and olives.

.

which sounds kind of sexy.




[q]If you take a 6 year old boy going to a pro gay therapist because he doesn't like sports, that boy in search or quest of his idenity, might later identify himself as Gay- to please the people around him.[/q]



really, being gay to please someone?

i could cry.
Well that was the first of several appoaches of gay guys solicting, advocating and encouraging me to give it a whirl.

A mulititude of tactics were tried by many different gay men in my life, from friends to bosses to older gay men.

I could have made that choice, it was a choice for me as it is to some.

I chose not to experiment with something that didn't feel right, but I was tempted at times, and coulda even did things that approached the treshold, but in the end I felt it didn't feel right for what ever reason.

dbs
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Old 10-20-2007, 03:17 PM   #420
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
I chose not to experiment with something that didn't feel right
Interesting. So if it didn't feel right, do you really think you were choosing anything instead of just following who you naturally are?

Are you sexually attracted to men? No? Then that wasn't a choice. Sure, I guess technically it could be considered a choice that you chose to do something that didn't agree with who you are, but homosexuals are not straight people who are suddenly faced with an external choice and go against their nature.

Did you choose to find women attractive?
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