one german's opinion

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earthshell

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i received this in an email message.

spam has never been so tasteless.

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Matthias Dapfner, Chief Executive of the huge German publisher Axel Springer AG, has written a blistering attack in DIE WELT, Germany's largest daily newspaper, against the timid reaction of Europe in the face of the Islamic threat.

EUROPE - THY NAME IS COWARDICE
(Commentary by Mathias Dapfner CEO, Axel Springer, AG)

A few days ago Henry Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, "Europe - your family name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get out of your head because it's so terribly true.

Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives as England and France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long before they noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to toothless agreements.

Appeasement legitimized and stabilized Communism in the Soviet Union, then East Germany, then all the rest of Eastern Europe where for decades, inhuman, suppressive, murderous governments were glorified as the ideologically correct alternative to all other possibilities.

Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Kosovo, and even though we had absolute proof of ongoing mass murder, we Europeans debated and debated and debated, and were still debating when finally the Americans had to come from halfway around the world, into Europe yet again, and do our work for us.

Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, European appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word "equidistance," now countenances suicide bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians.

Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe to ignore nearly 500,000 victims of Saddam's torture and murder machinery and, motivated by the self-righteousness of the peace-movement, has the gall to issue bad grades to George Bush... Even as it is uncovered that the loudest critics of the American action in Iraq made illicit billions, no, TENS of billions, in the corrupt U.N. Oil-for-Food program.

And now we are faced with a particularly grotesque form of appeasement... how is Germany reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere? By suggesting that we really should have a "Muslim Holiday" in Germany.

I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of our (German) Government, and if the polls are to be believed, the German people, actually believe that creating an Official State "Muslim Holiday" will somehow spare us from the wrath of the fanatical Islamists.

One cannot help but recall Britain's Neville Chamberlain waving the laughable treaty signed by Adolph Hitler, and declaring European "Peace in our time".

What else has to happen before the European public and its political leadership get it? There is a sort of crusade underway, an especially perfidious crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims, focused on civilians, directed against our free, open Western societies, and intent upon Western Civilization's utter destruction.

It is a conflict that will most likely last longer than any of the great military conflicts of the last century - a conflict conducted by an enemy that cannot be tamed by "tolerance" and "accommodation" but is actually spurred on by such gestures, which have proven to be, and will always be taken by the Islamists for signs of weakness.

Only two recent American Presidents had the courage needed for anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush.

His American critics may quibble over the details, but we Europeans know the truth. We saw it first hand: Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing half of the German people from nearly 50 years of terror and virtual slavery. And Bush, supported only by the Social Democrat Blair, acting on moral conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic War against democracy. His place in history will have to be evaluated after = a number of years have passed.

In the meantime, Europe sits back with charismatic self-confidence in the multicultural corner, instead of defending liberal society's values and being an attractive center of power on the same playing field as the true great powers, America and China.

On the contrary - we Europeans present ourselves, in contrast to those "arrogant Americans", as the World Champions of "tolerance", which even (Germany's Interior Minister) Otto Schily justifiably criticizes. Why? Because we're so moral? I fear it's more because we're so materialistic, so devoid of a moral compass.

For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the American economy - because unlike almost all of Europe, Bush realizes = what is at stake - literally everything.

While we criticize the "capitalistic robber barons" of America because they seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our Social Welfare systems. Stay out of it! It could get expensive! We'd rather discuss reducing our 35-hour workweek or our dental coverage, or our 4 weeks of paid vacation... Or listen to TV pastors preach about the need to "reach out to terrorists. To understand and forgive".

These days, Europe reminds me of an old woman who, with shaking hands, frantically hides her last pieces of jewelry when she notices a robber breaking into a neighbor's house.

Appeasement? Europe, thy name is Cowardice.

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scary.
 
do you remember any terrorist attacks against germany or france lately? i dont.

the logic is pretty simple, if we walk away they walk away.

also about the muslim holiday, germany has a predominantly muslim turkish population of 2.5 million, and im sure there are at least 500k to 1 million muslims from different nations, making up 4 percent of the total population. now thats not an unsignificant group. and if the country has religious holidays for christians, its only fair that they have them for muslims, jews, hindus or whoever.

whats really scary is that this guy heads the largest daily newspaper in germany.
 
He thinks Bush and Reagan are 2 of the greatest American presidents and he loves to bash Europe. Well he fits the criteria, the neo-cons would embrace this man in a heartbeat. So if he ever had to flee the country, he'd have a safe home here with the GOP.
 
all_i_want said:
do you remember any terrorist attacks against germany or france lately? i dont.

the logic is pretty simple, if we walk away they walk away.


while i've never supported the invasion of Iraq, and can't find too much i like about this article, i do think the above logic is extremely simplistic and dangerous.

there is a real, deadly threat of Islamist extremism out there that is not about to go away no matter what the rest does. and these people pose a threat not just to, say, New York, but also to people in, say, Istanbul.
 
Irvine511 said:



while i've never supported the invasion of Iraq, and can't find too much i like about this article, i do think the above logic is extremely simplistic and dangerous.

there is a real, deadly threat of Islamist extremism out there that is not about to go away no matter what the rest does. and these people pose a threat not just to, say, New York, but also to people in, say, Istanbul.

yeah, i do realize that. what happened on 15 and 20th of november, 2003 proves it. 2 synagogues and HSBC buildings were bombed in istanbul. but the solution is not to attack other nations head on with this. there should be a two pronged approach: you should make life better for the people who are potential recruits for such organizations, and tackle these groups themselves. now, how to accomplish those objectives is where the disagreement is.

i find it ironic that the same europeans once criticised turkey for its tough stance against islamic extremism.

it is also ironic that US used to support people with these kinds of mindsets in the middle east, against the soviets.

edit: also the point of my original post was, if you escalate the situation by attacking countries who did not take part in terrorist activities leading to 9-11, youre not saying youre out to get the terrorists. europe supported the war against afghanistan, and so did my country. we had troops there under NATO. the whole world was committed to the war against terror.
 
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all_i_want said:

edit: also the point of my original post was, if you escalate the situation by attacking countries who did not take part in terrorist activities leading to 9-11, youre not saying youre out to get the terrorists. europe supported the war against afghanistan, and so did my country. we had troops there under NATO. the whole world was committed to the war against terror.


on this we agree. Iraq was, to me, totally beside the point. i'm obviously not sorry to see Saddam Hussein go, there was a much better way to do this, and it didn't have to happen on an election timetable.

my point, and i've made this point blank to many of my European friends, is that you cannot underestimate the catastrophe that suicidal Islamist extremism can cause. this is not the IRA, this is not the ETA, this is not even the Shining Path. this is an apocalyptic mindset, and it must be destroyed.

the mindset, not the people. and i agree with a multi-pronged attack, and the establishment of something resembling a middle class in these countries where people have something to lose and a stake in the stability of their societies. by and large, people with a sense of ownership over something don't get sucked into extremism.
 
I agree with what you guys are saying, I support the war against terror also, I supported the effort in Afghanistan for this reason. I didn't support the war in Iraq because it was a different thing entirely, and they completely botched the occupation as well. I don't like this German guy either, I never liked Reagan and I don't like Bush. I'm sure the Republicans would love to have him.
 
A solid opinion, appeasment of Islamic terrorism will not work ~ Europe cannot talk it's way out of the problem, Europe cannot bring Bin Laden into the fold like they did with Yasser Arafat. This is one man who really does get "it".

The struggle against Fascist Islam is one that must be fought by all free nations, it cannot end until the Muslim world is rid of toxic ideologies of suicide and mass murder, violent anti-semitism and apocalyptic terror.
Sir Winston Churchill
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Europe may have bought time by feeding the Islamist crocodile but that will only delay the inevitable point where that monster lashes out at them.
 
And the key to the defeat of Islamic Fascism is to support the 50% of the population that suffers the most under it. Check out this from Kuwait
kuwait_women_rights.jpg


KUWAIT (Reuters) - Around 500 Kuwaiti activists, mostly women, have demonstrated outside parliament to demand female suffrage amidst tensions in the Gulf Arab state over a government drive to grant women political rights.

“Women’s rights now,” chanted the crowd, which included women dressed in abayas, or traditional long black cloaks. Some of the demonstrators at Monday’s protest wore veils over their faces.

“Our democracy will only be complete with women,” said a placard written in Arabic. “We are not less, you are not more. We need a balance, open the door,” said one written in English.
link

This is indeed a positive development ~ victory will have many fathers but defeat is an orphan ~ I think that the cracks in opression are beginning to show and if the free world can present a united front in solidarity with those who could be our allies then these ripples may grow into waves. This protest is not a massive world changing event, but it is a step in the right direction ~ when we see such things in Saudi Arabia and Iran (Kuwait is relatively more liberal than those regimes) then I suspect the big unravelling will begin.
 
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A_Wanderer said:
A solid opinion, appeasment of Islamic terrorism will not work ~ Europe cannot talk it's way out of the problem, Europe cannot bring Bin Laden into the fold like they did with Yasser Arafat. This is one man who really does get "it".

I sincerely hope you are not comparing Yasser Arafat to Bin Laden.....
 
A_Wanderer said:
A solid opinion, appeasment of Islamic terrorism will not work ~ Europe cannot talk it's way out of the problem, Europe cannot bring Bin Laden into the fold like they did with Yasser Arafat. This is one man who really does get "it".

The struggle against Fascist Islam is one that must be fought by all free nations, it cannot end until the Muslim world is rid of toxic ideologies of suicide and mass murder, violent anti-semitism and apocalyptic terror.

Europe may have bought time by feeding the Islamist crocodile but that will only delay the inevitable point where that monster lashes out at them.


Fascist Islam?

Islamic Terror?

Islamic crocodile?

Monster?

These are EXACTLY the same kind of dehumanising phrases once used to demonise the Jews. I think you should be more careful about the words you use, especially when you are the first to criticize others.
 
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Would you consider Sharon a terrorist?

Right, and so is Bush, and Blair, and every other elected official from democratic states that are actively engaging by military means...

Yes, of course, they are all terrorists.
 
MadelynIris said:


Right, and so is Bush, and Blair, and every other elected official from democratic states that are actively engaging by military means...

Yes, of course, they are all terrorists.

Did I say that? No. But consider it this way - when governments kill 10 year old kids, it's not terrorism right?
 
Of course the British government is perfect.....Britain never did anything bad....isn't that right "Father Ted"?
 
MadelynIris said:


Sure - drunk drivers kill 10 year olds too - terrorists, all of them.

Drunk drivers? Let's not bring Bush and Dick Cheney into it.

But answer the question - do you consider all actions by governments to be right?
 
But answer the question - do you consider all actions by governments to be right?

Of course - all actions by governments are right. LOL! Especially those done by N. Korea, Iran and Cuba.

The Chinese government has always been to known to be 100% correct, 100% of the time.

The US and UK, sad to say, have only been right 99.93% of the time. Take for example, the time they accidently shot down Panam 111 or when the destroyed Europe in WWII. Can't always be right...
 
MadelynIris said:


The US and UK, sad to say, have only been right 99.93% of the time. Take for example, the time they accidently shot down Panam 111 or when the destroyed Europe in WWII. Can't always be right...

US and UK right 99.93% of the time - ok now I know you're taking the piss. Slan a chara.
 
financeguy said:


I sincerely hope you are not comparing Yasser Arafat to Bin Laden.....
Yes I am, Yasser Arafat was the best inspiration for terrorists in the modern world. He was a terrorist cunt who built Palestinian nationalism on the blood of innocents and was rewarded for his efforts. The Palestinians being given such special treatment by the UN over other occupied people (such as Tibet, Chechnya and Kurdistan) is a direct result of his terror campaigns. He was able to present words of peace to the international community while at the same time growing generations of Kids up with genocidal loathing of Jews and ensuring that compromise could never occur ~ and with no compromise every cent of money that he stole "for the cause" was excusable.

Bin Laden is a little bit more ambitious in his plans; pan-Islamic states across the world encompassing all the ME and SE Asia, "liberating" Andalusia and using sympathetic Muslim Majorities across the world to achieve a global ummah but the basic game plan is the same. Kill lots of innocent people; play the international community like a fiddle until that murder is considered justified and he has enough sympathisers and eventually have your demands met.

His worldview is not however the worldview of Muslims. I am not saying that all Muslims are evil or subscribe to this type of apocalyptic ideology ~ to suggest somehow that I am deliberately trying to inspire hatred by laying out what I think about Bin Laden and the entire fucked up politcal system of Political Islam (which is a fascist totallitarian system when implemented in many cases especially when in the mold of the Taliban).

financeguy said:



Fascist Islam?

Islamic Terror?

Islamic crocodile?

Monster?

These are EXACTLY the same kind of dehumanising phrases once used to demonise the Jews. I think you should be more careful about the words you use, especially when you are the first to criticize others.
These are terms used in the 1930's to criticise the Nazi's. The ideology of the Islamists is not one of peace and cooperation, it is one of total domination and ruin. I am not going to get uppity about you comparing me describing the threat of a violent political ideology to the Nazi's establishing a hatred of Jews for their total destruction. And one more thing Islamist crocodile (I did not say Islamic Crocodile ~ the fact that you had to misquote me to make your point says a lot) was used in reference to a Winston Churchill quote about appeasers "feeding the crocodile", I was not calling the Muslim world a crocodile. I have maintained that terrorism and radical Islam is a symptom of the broader lack of political freedom and expression in the Muslim world ~ it is not what Islam represents rather it is a very real problem in the Islamic world that can be fixed. I have no problem with Muslims just like I don't have a problem with Christians, Jews, Budhists or Zoroastrians. I do have a very serious problem with those that take exception to human rights and freedom ~ I really hate mysoginists and think that institutionalised persecution is evil. Those that rob people of their individuality rank pretty bloody highly on my don't like list. If you feel that my feelings towards the Bin Ladens or Abu Bakr Bashirs in this world is anti-Muslim then perhaps you should look more closely at what you think Islam represents.

I am describing a political ideology ~ political Islam ~ which as so many insist is a seperate beast from Islam the religion. I consider that the Taliban, Iranian Mullahocracy and Saudi Arabia's Wahhabi ideology are each examples of this totallitarian ideology. It is a political system devised by men that uses divine justification to consolidate power in the hands of a ruling class of theocrats with no accountability. It is no different than fascism or communism, one more totallitarian ideology that is ready to be heaped into the dustbin of history and humanity will be better for it's removal.

So in conclusion, I think that the political ideology of Islamism (a.k.a. Fascist Islam) is a dire threat to the world. I do not think that anybody should attempt to appease such an ideology by granting concessions (such as surrendering Israel or allowing the establishment of Islamist states to go unchallenged). In the long term the only cure for this toxic ideology that only works in the absence of hope is a competing ideology that human beings find attractive ~ liberty and democracy ~ and regardless of how much some people insist to the contrary I have an abiding faith that human beings of all creeds prefer to live their lives freely when given that opportunity. The will of free men and women throughout the history of the world that has proven to be a consistent force for good.

If you wish to remind me of US support for SA or any number of dictators that cause these problems then don't worry it already pisses me off to no end. I think that that is a big problem and obstacle that requires significant influence and power politics to resolve; i.e. how to remove support without opening up a greater problem ~ better the devil you know especially in Saudi Arabia where the alternative to the utterly corrupt Royal Family and totally abhorent religious leaders seems to be a black hole of tribal and religious warfare seeking control of a large chunk of energy resources. So we have to introduce principles to gain a favourable option, and this is what seperates today from the cold war ~ during the Cold War there was another superpower there too influence countries thus neccesitating all those dictators ~ since if it wasn't a pro-West dictator you would find a pro-Soviet one pretty quickly. Today however that threat is gone and the motivation to support dictatorships isn't there ~ freedom ~ liberty and democracy ~ is the cure for the problems we are presented with in this day and age.

Freedom is contagious. Symptoms include spontaneous outbreaks of joy, and the unstifled yearning of the human spirit. It is commonly treated with increasingly large doses of government. Most sufferers eventually need an intensive dose of tyranny.

The best prevention is ignorance.

But in the long run, there is no cure, a free mankind is an inevitablity.
 
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A_Wanderer said:
He was a terrorist cunt ...

Completely unnappropriate language and very disrespectful to women. Please refrain from it in the future when forming your vitriolic tirades.
 
It's really tough for me to see the Saudi state taking its Wahhabist structure out of its political context because it's in the nature of a Wahhabist state not to have any state apparatus outside of it. It's supposedly based on the Koran rather than a drafted or precendence-traditional constitution. This is the same philosophy used by the Sunni terrorists against the Iraqi elections, that they were putting people before God. Saudi Arabia is practically the last country in the Middle East that will ever become democratic. There's a better chance in the non-Wahhabi states--fortunately that's every other Muslim country.
 
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