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U2isthebest

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Vision over visibility....
As a Christian, I really would like a perspective from those of other faiths or no religious faith on how the body of Christ, whether as individuals or communaly, has failed. Obviously, being a Christian doesn't make any of us perfect (although it would seem that way from the self-righteousness of many Believers) I often feel we use this excuse as a reason to subtly, or not subtly, pass judgement on others. I, of course, know there's a great deal of hypocrisy, closemindedness, and judgement in the church that makes the credibility of Christians irreparably damaged in many peoples' eyes. I'd like to see some of you who are non-Believers to expand on those common problems, maybe with personal anecdotes, or to simply broaden your issues with Christians/ity to other areas as well. I don't really want this to veer off into the topic of (why does God?... if God exists, then how come?... etc.) I feel like that's gone over enough here and many other places as well. I'd really like this thread to be about the problems with Christianity and the crap hole of a job we've done in really being Jesus in this world. I'm sick of other Christians sweeping this under the rug with statements like, "They just know that we have the truth and they don't, so they hate us." There's an issue deeper than that. Non-Believers in Jesus' day loved being around him. He spent most of his time with the people the religious considered the scum of the earth. He wasn't in his little holy huddle at church trying to hide from the big, bad world. Yet, we as Christians do the exact opposite. It pisses me off to no end. I think I might be going OT here so I'll end. For other Christians, that might want to answer the non-Believers' questions here, or respond to posts: Please don't do so in an offensive or defensive manner. Simply try and be unbiased and understand where they're coming from.
 
I come to Christianity it a unique way. I fully believe in the Divinity of Christ, yet I'm not a Christian. I think Christianity has Beauty and Truth.

My problem comes with His human followers who have allowed their faith, their religion of Love and Forgiveness and inclusion to be used as a tool for hatred, bigotry, and exclusion. Many Christians don't do this; they live their faith. But so many times, people will use their Bible, and Jesus's own Words, to justify their fear and prejudice. It saddens me.
 
martha said:
I come to Christianity it a unique way. I fully believe in the Divinity of Christ, yet I'm not a Christian. I think Christianity has Beauty and Truth.

My problem comes with His human followers who have allowed their faith, their religion of Love and Forgiveness and inclusion to be used as a tool for hatred, bigotry, and exclusion. Many Christians don't do this; they live their faith. But so many times, people will use their Bible, and Jesus's own Words, to justify their fear and prejudice. It saddens me.

We appear to have similar conclusions. I don't always get along so well with my fundie family. According to The Bible itself, what is a Christian but one who believes Jesus was and is who He said was and is?
 
As a believer, I totally understand where you're coming from. I feel like the "conservative religious right" group are very similar to the religious group in Jesus' time on earth. God tells us that we should be humble and not let our pride and judgement of others get in the way of loving others, and it saddens me that these "religious leaders" believe the opposite. Fortunately, though, not all Christians think this way.
 
True believers are starting to wake up and see just how bad we've been exploited by right wing politicians (Sadducees).

We have a lot to "take back" from that group, to include helping the poor, taking care of our planet and all kinds of forms of social injustice.

Unfortunately, evangelicalism has been 'perceived' to be one with this movement, and I say it's time we take it back.
 
Although there are plenty of things some Christians do that irk me, right now I'll just mention three which never fail to both irritate me and lower my respect significantly for those who utter them. It is by no means intended to be a condemnation of all Christians (just some of them :wink: ).

1) the belief that those who are agnostic or atheistic (or just aren't Christian) can't be as moral as Christians. Bull. To be a good Christian, you have to be a good person first. (same for all other religions too) Plenty of exceptionally decent, moral people hold no religious beliefs at all and to assume otherwise is incredibly insulting. If you hold this view, does that mean that you would be a raping, pillaging, murdering marauder if you suddenly lost your faith? If so, please stay far, far away from me even now, because that's just creepy.

2) "Christians are under attack in the US/Christians are persecuted in the US/It's really hard to be a Christian in the US." :lmao: Do you have a single brain cell in your head? Seriously. Do you have any clue just how much you are catered to in this country? Respecting the rights and beliefs of other people is not persecuting you. If you honestly believe you, as a Christian, are persecuted or under attack in this country then everything you say is suspect because you clearly are not rational.

3) prosyletising -- don't. Just don't. I hate the hard sell. If I'm interested I am quite capable of asking or otherwise checking out a belief system on my own. But if you push me I won't buy from you, even if I later become interested.

I don't mind many Christians (I even like some :wink: ) and I realise some of my comments above seem harsh, but these things really rankle.
 
indra said:
1) the belief that those who are agnostic or atheistic (or just aren't Christian) can't be as moral as Christians. Bull. To be a good Christian, you have to be a good person first. (same for all other religions too) Plenty of exceptionally decent, moral people hold no religious beliefs at all and to assume otherwise is incredibly insulting. If you hold this view, does that mean that you would be a raping, pillaging, murdering marauder if you suddenly lost your faith? If so, please stay far, far away from me even now, because that's just creepy.
[/B]

I agree, there are some Christians that I can't stand to be around. Just because you are a Christian doesn't mean that you are an automatic "friend" to me. If you are an all around good person who is fun to be around, then that's fine to me.
 
indra said:


2) "Christians are under attack in the US/Christians are persecuted in the US/It's really hard to be a Christian in the US." :lmao: Do you have a single brain cell in your head? Seriously. Do you have any clue just how much you are catered to in this country? Respecting the rights and beliefs of other people is not persecuting you. If you honestly believe you, as a Christian, are persecuted or under attack in this country then everything you say is suspect because you clearly are not rational.

:scratch:

This piece makes no sense. If you're not a Christian, you do not truly know what it is like to live as one in the United States, so the above has no backup or support.

In response to that, it is becoming increasingly difficult to be a Christian in the United States and to live out my beliefs the way I wish, and unless you are one, you cannot say otherwise, so don't bother. It is difficult to be a Christian anywhere in the world. I'll never forget what one of my professors said last year. He said that in one country (I think in the middle east, I wish I could remember) if I was to go over there, walk down the middle of the street and say "I'm a Christian!", I would be shot on the spot. And as a formal military man and police officer, I believe him. Tell me that's not persecution. Last time I checked, we don't do that to Muslims here in the states.
 
What the hell does somebody being persecuted in Saudi have to do with you living in the US?

Your feelings of persecution are completely and entirely misplaced. And I bet a lot of them have to do with things which are political in nature and not religious (the state of marriage, the state of medical decisions on things like abortion, end-of-life and stem cells, secularism in schools). Nobody is preventing you from worshipping. Now you feel like infusing your religion into the public sphere is your right and when it is interfered with, you are persecuted. Absolute nonsense.

When have you felt persecuted openly declaring you are going to church, or joining sunday school, or choosing a Christian college or Christian private school, or tithing, or having a religious wedding ceremony, etc?
 
^ No one in the States would shoot you for saying you're Christian, though. Nor would the average American prosecute you for your religious beliefs. Which, I believe, was indra's point. We hear many christians complaining that they are 'forced' to give up their rights as human beings on the streets of America. Not likely - you are allowed to freely practice your religious faith in this country at all times, except where you threaten the life and freedom of another. Like every other religious faith in this country.

You make me wonder what it is you wish to do with your faith.
 
MadelynIris said:
True believers are starting to wake up and see just how bad we've been exploited by right wing politicians (Sadducees).

We have a lot to "take back" from that group, to include helping the poor, taking care of our planet and all kinds of forms of social injustice.

Unfortunately, evangelicalism has been 'perceived' to be one with this movement, and I say it's time we take it back.



three sets of two words:

fair enough.

good luck.

rock on.
 
and, again we see that the prevention of forcing other people to follow one set of beliefs is viewed as tantamount to persecution by some.

i'm going to go kiss Memphis in public so's I can discriminate me some Christians!

*AND* i'm going to say "happy holidays" all December long!

take that, Christians!
 
Now this is my kinda thread.

This Catholic believes that God hates war. There's an awful lot in the Bible about the blood of innocents crying to Him. I feel similarly about the death penalty for similar reason.

Poverty is an offense to God's holiness. "Those who oppress the poor mock their Maker" Chapter Something:Verse Something, Psalms. :wink:

Also, Genesis has a lot to say about the Who and Why of creation. Very little to say, that I can see, about the hows. So the "evolution is evil" thing just baffles me.

Finally, if God didn't want gay babies, there wouldn't be any. :D
 
2861U2 said:
This piece makes no sense. If you're not a Christian, you do not truly know what it is like to live as one in the United States, so the above has no backup or support.

In response to that, it is becoming increasingly difficult to be a Christian in the United States and to live out my beliefs the way I wish, and unless you are one, you cannot say otherwise, so don't bother. It is difficult to be a Christian anywhere in the world. I'll never forget what one of my professors said last year. He said that in one country (I think in the middle east, I wish I could remember) if I was to go over there, walk down the middle of the street and say "I'm a Christian!", I would be shot on the spot. And as a formal military man and police officer, I believe him. Tell me that's not persecution. Last time I checked, we don't do that to Muslims here in the states.

Annnnd everyone else's point is made by this post. :|
 
2861U2 said:


In response to that, it is becoming increasingly difficult to be a Christian in the United States and to live out my beliefs the way I wish, and unless you are one, you cannot say otherwise, so don't bother. It is difficult to be a Christian anywhere in the world. I'll never forget what one of my professors said last year. He said that in one country (I think in the middle east, I wish I could remember) if I was to go over there, walk down the middle of the street and say "I'm a Christian!", I would be shot on the spot. And as a formal military man and police officer, I believe him. Tell me that's not persecution. Last time I checked, we don't do that to Muslims here in the states.

You just gave evidence to her argument.

It isn't difficult!!! Quit trying to be a victim.
 
To be a good Christian, you have to be a good person first

Indra,

The above quote is the only thing that I would take exception to with your post, otherwise agree.

Most Christians (not Catholics) believe that the whole point of coming to Christ and following him is because you admit you are not a good person (plenty of various benchmarks, so I won't get into that), but the concept is, that's ok -- you don't have to be a 'good person' to be a good Christian.

Measuring one's self along the scale of 'not good' to 'perfection' is considered to be the plight of a follower of Christ. The concept is to reflect on where one is on that scale, relative to Christ, or other believers that mentor you, and sincerely try to change your attitude to impove along the way.

But "grace" is the key, the thing that is different from most other religions. It is freely given. Oh, how Christians forget that over and over again.
 
anitram, I will miss your avatar. :sad:

What I've seen/read of hatred against people like me, an atheist, I don't see how the Christians in the US are under so much trouble.
 
MadelynIris said:


Most Christians (not Catholics) believe

I'm going to nitpick, but MOST Christians (by a greater than 2:1 margin) are Catholics. Therefore MOST Christians don't believe as you stated.
 
Yeah, I was thinking internationally. Obviously in the US they make up a smaller percentage. The figure I have is ~400-450 million protestants, 1+ billion Catholics and ~150 million Orthodox (who believe as Catholics do insofar as the topic is concerned).

But it's a good point, because we are constantly on this forum inundated with what is usually an evangelical protestant US view. That is a VERY minority view worldwide. I guess it makes sense since most posters here are American, but we should bear in mind that the vast majority of Christians around the world believes differently on a number of these issues.
 
MadelynIris said:
True believers are starting to wake up and see just how bad we've been exploited by right wing politicians (Sadducees).

We have a lot to "take back" from that group, to include helping the poor, taking care of our planet and all kinds of forms of social injustice.

Unfortunately, evangelicalism has been 'perceived' to be one with this movement, and I say it's time we take it back.


I could not agree more completely! There's a book I just read recently called "Why The Christian Right Is Wrong" It's written by a pastor named Robin Meyers. I can't say I agree with all his theology, but in his political and social policies I am with him 100 %. I would say check it out if you get a chance.
 
MadelynIris said:



But "grace" is the key, the thing that is different from most other religions. It is freely given. Oh, how Christians forget that over and over again.


Once again, I agree with you! I've been listening to a lot of Jay Bakker's podcasts lately, (son of Jim and Tammy Faye) and I'm completely finding myself just so encouraged and filled with hope. He is nothing but grace, and I just find that so refreshing and pure. I started a thread about him here. http://forum.interference.com/t178363.html

It quickly went OT, though:huh:

Anyway, he talked in one of his messages about how Christians are constantly saying "Accept Jesus, Grace is a free gift from God!" Then, once a person is saved, it becomes, "Ok, now give up alcohol, swearing, secular music, etc." Jay compared it someone saying, "Here's a brand new Ferrari! It's free!" However, when you get in the car to drive away, they say "Oh, could you please sign here for the monthly payments?" To me, that's what I've seen over and over again in the church and it just hurts me.


Btw, another reason to love Jay Bakker: He's a huge U2 fan.:drool:
 
2861U2 said:


:scratch:

This piece makes no sense. If you're not a Christian, you do not truly know what it is like to live as one in the United States, so the above has no backup or support.

In response to that, it is becoming increasingly difficult to be a Christian in the United States and to live out my beliefs the way I wish, and unless you are one, you cannot say otherwise, so don't bother. It is difficult to be a Christian anywhere in the world. I'll never forget what one of my professors said last year. He said that in one country (I think in the middle east, I wish I could remember) if I was to go over there, walk down the middle of the street and say "I'm a Christian!", I would be shot on the spot. And as a formal military man and police officer, I believe him. Tell me that's not persecution. Last time I checked, we don't do that to Muslims here in the states.

I don't really understand this either. Indra's original comment was about Christians complaining their rights were being taken away here in the U.S. I'm not sure what that has to do with Saudi Arabia. I don't know what their stance on religious freedom is there, but I'm guessing it's not as lax as that of the U.S. Honestly, this whole "wounded puppy" complex that the church has about being trampled on has nothing to do us being able to worship as we please. We are allowed to have churches, we're allowed to advertise them, use them for community activities, etc. We're allowed to read our Bibles, or pray in public so long as we're not disruptive. That goes for people in the U.S. of any religious faith. I went to a public high school and I go to a public college, and I've never been told to put my Bible away if I was reading it in the library or in class during free time, of course. The incessant whining about rights being taken away has to do with us trying to legislate them for people. THAT is utterly wrong. We are a republic, not a theocracy. The founding fathers kept church/religion and state separate for a reason. If any religious tradition or lack thereof took control of government and/or legislation, we would see the theocracy stated above. That is precisely the thing the people who first came here were trying to avoid. They wanted to be free to worship, or not worship as they chose. When it comes to government, we as Christians have no precedent over anyone else. To even subtly say that, as so many Christians do, is a slap in the face to the Jesus we claim as our Savior and Lord.
 
U2isthebest said:


Honestly, this whole "wounded puppy" complex that the church has about being trampled on has nothing to do us being able to worship as we please. We are allowed to have churches, we're allowed to advertise them, use them for community activities, etc. We're allowed to read our Bibles, or pray in public so long as we're not disruptive. That goes for people in the U.S. of any religious faith. I went to a public high school and I go to a public college, and I've never been told to put my Bible away if I was reading it in the library or in class during free time, of course. The incessant whining about rights being taken away has to do with us trying to legislate them for people. THAT is utterly wrong. We are a republic, not a theocracy. The founding fathers kept church/religion and state separate for a reason. If any religious tradition or lack thereof took control of government and/or legislation, we would see the theocracy stated above. That is precisely the thing the people who first came here were trying to avoid. They wanted to be free to worship, or not worship as they chose. When it comes to government, we as Christians have no precedent over anyone else. To even subtly say that, as so many Christians do, is a slap in the face to the Jesus we claim as our Savior and Lord.


:applaud: I knew there were some sensible Christians who understand there is room for everyone in our society regardless of faith or lack thereof. And there isn't a witchhunt to erase Jesus from the western world.
 
trevster2k said:



:applaud: I knew there were some sensible Christians who understand there is room for everyone in our society regardless of faith or lack thereof. And there isn't a witchhunt to erase Jesus from the western world.

Thanks!:hug: The God I believe in and serve says that all people are equal in His sight regardless of religion, race, gender, socioeconomic standing, sexuality etc. I don't see why I should believe any differently!
 
2861U2 said:


:scratch:

This piece makes no sense. If you're not a Christian, you do not truly know what it is like to live as one in the United States, so the above has no backup or support.

In response to that, it is becoming increasingly difficult to be a Christian in the United States and to live out my beliefs the way I wish, and unless you are one, you cannot say otherwise, so don't bother. It is difficult to be a Christian anywhere in the world. I'll never forget what one of my professors said last year. He said that in one country (I think in the middle east, I wish I could remember) if I was to go over there, walk down the middle of the street and say "I'm a Christian!", I would be shot on the spot. And as a formal military man and police officer, I believe him. Tell me that's not persecution. Last time I checked, we don't do that to Muslims here in the states.
Bollocks, you are not a Chaldean Christian in Iraq you are living in a secular nation where freedom of religion is a guaranteed right with no persecution from the state. The instances that are run off ad infinitum as examples or persecution usually involve Christian groups being denied promotion from government or taxpayers funds, and no government promotion of religion is the flipside of no persecution within the confines of a secular state.

Your right to be a Christian and to live out your beliefs does not extend to legislation of marriage equality, euthenasia and abortion rights of other individuals that do not adhere to the same belief sytem or suffer the same hangups towards those issues. Neither issue is settled under law because your particular brand of masturbatory theobabblery declares it to be wrong; when that expectation that a Biblical perspective is a legitimate argument gets dashed in the courts it is parroted off as an example of anti-Christian bias despite the fact that your nation supports some of the most observant Christians in the western world today and that by virtue of numbers faith is a precondition for holding elected office.

When Christians are getting whole families executed for holding that faith and we start seeing Churches getting firebombed then you have an argument, because at the moment all that bleating is even more pathetic than Islamic PR groups.
 
2861U2 said:
In response to that, it is becoming increasingly difficult to be a Christian in the United States and to live out my beliefs the way I wish, and unless you are one, you cannot say otherwise, so don't bother.

Why waste my time typing out a lengthy reply about how ludicrous your statement is when I can just use a handy image?

Persecution.gif
 
MadelynIris said:
True believers are starting to wake up and see just how bad we've been exploited by right wing politicians (Sadducees).

We have a lot to "take back" from that group, to include helping the poor, taking care of our planet and all kinds of forms of social injustice.

Unfortunately, evangelicalism has been 'perceived' to be one with this movement, and I say it's time we take it back.

Great post.
 
I should make clear that my third point -- prosyletising -- has not been an issue for me here on this board, or by anyone on this board. I appreciate that. It has been all too common in "real" life though. The other two points I have had come up in both online and offline situations.

2861U2 -- Your reply is textbook example of what I meant!

And although it is beside the point, if I walked down the middle of that same street in that same unnamed middle eastern nation saying "I'm an atheist or agnostic!" I might very well be shot on sight too. I, however, wouldn't be foolish enough to do that, and I suggest that if you ever find yourself in the middle of the street in that unnamed middle eastern nation that you also avoid drawing attention to yourself in such a manner. It's just common sense.

MadelynIris -- I probably should have phrased that a little differently, because I think we essentially agree on this point. I do believe someone can be a good Christian (or any other religion, or even no religion) and have flaws -- even serious flaws. The key is in the desire and the attempt to correct those flaws, not the complete absence of them (which I believe is impossible for any human anyway). But if someone is a truly vile human being and has no desire to change and become a better person, I can't see that person as a good Christian.
 
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