Okla. Woman Said to Give Birth While Drunk

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I think by keeping the baby she made her choice ( with the responsibility that goes with it ) so she should face the punishmend.


I agree with what is said here before, she should have help long before this.
 
Irvine511 said:
i haven't said a word about abortion -- only that there are people in here who will take any and all opportunities to bring it up, even when it has nothing to do with the issue at hand unless one is willing to make radical, logically absurd simplifications. my statements were about your bridging of the issues, not the issues themselves.

and you're using terms like "personal choice" or "She chooses to eliminate the child from her body, and we would cheer on that right" that are clearly inflammatory.

and, again, i'm not debating abortion.

i'm debating both your logic and your intentions.

Stick to the logic. We spend too much time debating intentions and stirring shit.

Throughout a number of threads, we debate the breadth of rights of personal choice. Melissa Tanner made a choice. No where have we suggested that alcohol should be a controlled substance. Yet without much analysis, we have condemned her to various punishments up to and including death.

On what principle (consistently applied) do you step in and tell Melissa Tanner she can't drink alcohol? And how do you compare this to other things she is permitted to do to her body?
 
as a person who has taught a number of children with FASD, this story upsets me to no end. for fuck's sake, it's 100% preventable.

thoughts and prayers go out to this child who, through no fault of her own, may be rendered completely dependent for the rest of her life, depending on the extent of her disability.
 
Irvine511 said:
just let it be known that it is almost always the pro-life/anti-choice crowd who seek any and all opportunities to jump back into those chilly waters.

In the various Supreme Court threads we have had recently, it is usually the pro-choicers that take the opportunity to 'jump back into those chilly waters'.
 
80sU2isBest said:


She is an adult. She knows there are programs out there to help. But no one's going to force her to get help; she needs to decide to do it. She never did that. She is the offender in this case, not the victim.

you make it seem like conquering alcoholism is like curing a common cold. maybe she should have gone to the drug store and just picked herself up some alco-quil.

and i never said she was the victim.

now i remember why i try to only read FYM and not post in it.

:wave:
 
bonosgirl84 said:


you make it seem like conquering alcoholism is like curing a common cold. maybe she should have gone to the drug store and just picked herself up some alco-quil.

and i never said she was the victim.

now i remember why i try to only read FYM and not post in it.

:wave:

I know it's not easy. My Dad was an alcoholic for many years. He quit.

All I'm saying is that I can feel no compassion for this woman since she made the choice not to get help to stop drinking, whcih is a deadly choice, especially when she found out she was pregnant.
 
80sU2isBest said:


I know it's not easy. My Dad was an alcoholic for many years. He quit.

All I'm saying is that I can feel no compassion for this woman since she made the choice not to get help to stop drinking, whcih is a deadly choice, especially when she found out she was pregnant.
Good for your dad he was not pregnant when he was a alcoholic.
 
80sU2isBest said:


I know it's not easy. My Dad was an alcoholic for many years. He quit.

All I'm saying is that I can feel no compassion for this woman since she made the choice not to get help to stop drinking, whcih is a deadly choice, especially when she found out she was pregnant.

From this article we actually do not have any idea what choices she has made over the years towards getting help. Many people are in and out of rehab for years or even a lifetime. Relapse is part of the disease. I cannot understand not having compassion for someone with any disease.
 
joyfulgirl said:


From this article we actually do not have any idea what choices she has made over the years towards getting help. Many people are in and out of rehab for years or even a lifetime. Relapse is part of the disease. I cannot understand not having compassion for someone with any disease.

If your baby's life is on the line, you make tough decisions, and you are able to do things that are very difficult.
 
80sU2isBest said:


If your baby's life is on the line, you make tough decisions, and you are able to do things that are very difficult.

Some people, yes. Others, no. Until you've walked in those shoes, don't be so quick to judge. And even if you have walked in those shoes, don't be so quick to judge another for not being able to do what you could.
 
Unfortunately alcoholism is a disease and many people cannot "just quit". It takes a lot of hard work to stop engaging in an addictive habit. Perhaps this will be the tragedy that forces her to face what is going on.
 
80sU2isBest said:


I know it's not easy. My Dad was an alcoholic for many years. He quit.

All I'm saying is that I can feel no compassion for this woman since she made the choice not to get help to stop drinking, whcih is a deadly choice, especially when she found out she was pregnant.

Alcoholics don't "quit." And if your father is an alcoholic, you shouldn't say he *was* an alcoholic. He's in recovery.

I find the whole thing disgusting, and sad above all, but don't you think it's pretty cold of you to say you feel no compassion whatsoever for the woman?
 
Thank you VertigoGal, joyfulgirl and MissMoo. Alcoholism is a disease and its not as simple as saying its a choice the alcoholic makes and they can quit whenever they want if they just ask for help.

My father was an alcoholic and died due to alcohol related liver problems. I'm sure he didn't relish spending his last days in agony due to internal bleeding but even that didn't stop his desire to drink. He knew full well that it was killing him every time he opened a beer but he couldn't stop. He drank up until the day he slipped into a coma. I think if it was as easy as just quitting, he would have done it when they told him he was going to die if he kept drinking.

Someone far gone enough to drink daily while they are pregnant needs serious help...she's not blameless by any means and she should be punished but she's sick, not simply a horrible criminal who purposely hurt her baby.
 
Bono's American Wife said:

My father was an alcoholic and died due to alcohol related liver problems. I'm sure he didn't relish spending his last days in agony due to internal bleeding but even that didn't stop his desire to drink. He knew full well that it was killing him every time he opened a beer but he couldn't stop. He drank up until the day he slipped into a coma. I think if it was as easy as just quitting, he would have done it when they told him he was going to die if he kept drinking.


I'm so sorry about your father. :sad:

My mom was an active alcoholic throughout her pregnancies with both her brother and me, we were both born 7 weeks premature as a result, although luckily with no lasting effects (well my bro has learning disabilites, but who doesn't). She also miscarried at 7 months one time. It was sure as hell not what she wanted, as much as certain religious groups would like to downplay the fact that it's a DISEASE and try to shame alcoholics. Luckily she got help, cos it would have killed her in the end.
 
:hug: BAW :hug:

Most alcoholics/addicts experience deep shame and guilt over the way their addiction hurts the people they love and yet they are often powerless to make lasting changes. "Tough decisions" alone unfortunately do not cure diseases.
 
VertigoGal said:


Alcoholics don't "quit." And if your father is an alcoholic, you shouldn't say he *was* an alcoholic. He's in recovery.

I find the whole thing disgusting, and sad above all, but don't you think it's pretty cold of you to say you feel no compassion whatsoever for the woman?

My father DID quit. One day he was a drinker, and the next he stopped and he never did again. If that's not quitting, what is it? One of the reasons I say "was" is because my father passed away in 1993. The other is because when he stopped drinking he was no longer controlled by alcohol.

Why is it cold of me not to feel any compassion for her? She may have brain damaged her child for life. If she had accidentally injured her child, through no fault of her own, I'd feel compassion. Right now I am just so angry at her stupid choices and the consequences of her actions that the thought of "compassion" toward her doesn't even enter my mind.
 
80sU2isBest said:
Why is it cold of me not to feel any compassion for her? She may have brain damaged her child for life. If she had accidentally injured her child, through no fault of her own, I'd feel compassion. Right now I am just so angry at her stupid choices and the consequences of her actions that the thought of "compassion" toward her doesn't even enter my mind.



WWJD?
 
80sU2isBest said:


My father DID quit. One day he was a drinker, and the next he stopped and he never did again. If that's not quitting, what is it? One of the reasons I say "was" is because my father passed away in 1993. The other is because when he stopped drinking he was no longer controlled by alcohol.

Why is it cold of me not to feel any compassion for her? She may have brain damaged her child for life. If she had accidentally injured her child, through no fault of her own, I'd feel compassion. Right now I am just so angry at her stupid choices and the consequences of her actions that the thought of "compassion" toward her doesn't even enter my mind.

So because your father quit everyone can? It's great that he just quit but it's simply not the case for everyone any more than just because one person's cancer is cured everyone's will be.

One reason you might consider compassion is because, frankly, it is an important part of the teachings that you follow. I would think that you would at least be open to the idea even if you are not able to actuate it immediately. I certainly do not claim to be able to walk my talk all the time but I would at least like to be able to and can readily acknowledge that it is something to strive for.
 
Irvine511 said:

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joyfulgirl said:


So because your father quit everyone can? It's great that he just quit but it's simply not the case for everyone any more than just because one person's cancer is cured everyone's will be.

One reason you might consider compassion is because, frankly, it is an important part of the teachings that you follow. I would think that you would at least be open to the idea even if you are not able to actuate it immediately. I certainly do not claim to be able to walk my talk all the time but I would at least like to be able to and can readily acknowledge that it is something to strive for.

Joyful girl, you do indeed make sense, and I will reflect upon it.

Thank you.
 
I am glad that there were legal actions taken against her. Most cases, though, the mother is served alcohol in bars and restaurants, and if the server refuses to serve the woman, then the server is fired. And most cases the woman is not punished.
Not punished legally I should say. She has to endure the neverending hardships of fetal alcohol syndrome.
My cousin was born FAS. Her mother would drink, most often alone at home so no one would see her, but one time, at seven months pregnant, she came over and drank the remaining of my mom's beer. I think she drank two, and then she went outside and I ran in and dumped the rest out. I was so mad that she did that.
She is now a hardcore alcoholic, gave her kids to the dad and drinks heavily every day. She says she doesn't ever want to stop, she is drinking to kill herself.
This is a disease and I find it heartbreaking for people to lash out at people with a disease.
"Fucking hell! You are an alcoholic! You ruined people's lives forever, most of all your own children!"
"Fucking hell! You have cancer! You ruined people's lives forever, most of all your own children!"
 
xtal said:

This is a disease and I find it heartbreaking for people to lash out at people with a disease.
"Fucking hell! You are an alcoholic! You ruined people's lives forever, most of all your own children!"
"Fucking hell! You have cancer! You ruined people's lives forever, most of all your own children!"

You do have to admit there is a difference. Choosing to drink leads to Alcoholism (except in the case of fetal alcohol syndrome), and as difficult as it may be to stop, people can stop.

However, there are many types of cancer that come about as a result of nothing the victim ever did.
 
80sU2isBest said:


My father DID quit. One day he was a drinker, and the next he stopped and he never did again. If that's not quitting, what is it? One of the reasons I say "was" is because my father passed away in 1993. The other is because when he stopped drinking he was no longer controlled by alcohol.

Why is it cold of me not to feel any compassion for her? She may have brain damaged her child for life. If she had accidentally injured her child, through no fault of her own, I'd feel compassion. Right now I am just so angry at her stupid choices and the consequences of her actions that the thought of "compassion" toward her doesn't even enter my mind.

I don't doubt your father up and quit one day, but if that's the case I don't think he was an alcoholic. I know that sounds presumptuous because I never met him, but the withdrawal symptoms that a chemically dependant person would experience just going cold turkey like that...it's dangerous, deadly.

Do you believe in alcoholism as a disease, or a choice? It all comes down to that really, and I think you would find it much easier to feel compassion for the woman if you felt it was, in her current state, outside of her control.
 
Though some people are genetically predisposed to alcoholism, I do think we can run the risk of abnegating personal responsibility of we go too far down the 'alcohol is a disease' route.
 
80sU2isBest said:


You do have to admit there is a difference. Choosing to drink leads to Alcoholism (except in the case of fetal alcohol syndrome), and as difficult as it may be to stop, people can stop.

However, there are many types of cancer that come about as a result of nothing the victim ever did.

Choosing to drink *is* the choice of the person, however most people can drink casually and when someone takes their first drink they assume they will be able to as well. It's safest never to drink at all, but it's hard to condemn every person who takes the first drink.

Frankly, I'm scared. My mother is an alcoholic, my mother's mother is an alcoholic, my mother's two sisters are alcoholics (one of them nearly died last year). On the one hand, I want to be able to drink casually when I go to college and after, but on the other hand I don't want to end up like that. It's not as simple as it seems.
 
Alcoholism is not a choice. It's in your blood, it's genetic, it's physiological.
Why don't you read the book "Under The Influence".
Do some studying to back up your illogical views on a disease, that yes, people are born with as a result of nothing the victim ever did.

Let me repeat: Alcoholism is a disease that people are born with. Some recover, some don't. This is not a choice.
Cancer is a disease that some people are born with are or vulnerable because of genetics. Some recover, some don't. This is not a choice.
There is no difference.
 
80sU2isBest said:


You do have to admit there is a difference. Choosing to drink leads to Alcoholism (except in the case of fetal alcohol syndrome), and as difficult as it may be to stop, people can stop.

However, there are many types of cancer that come about as a result of nothing the victim ever did.

But there are many that could have been avoided.

No one blames those that seriously overeat and acquire such diseases as diabetes etc.
 
80sU2isBest said:
Choosing to drink leads to Alcoholism

i don't think that choosing to drink leads anyone to alcoholism. people are either predisposed to addictive personalities or they aren't. i suppose if you are predisposed and never try alcohol, you may not manifest the signs of an alcoholic, but you could still be one, even if you weren't aware of it. choice has nothing to do with it.
 
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