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Old 04-13-2008, 07:21 PM   #81
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Originally posted by Irvine511
the narrative about the campaign is now about how Obama isn't going to win. so vote for Hillary. because Obama can't win. that doesn't strike me as a compelling reason to vote for anyone, and it's quite depressing to see
But this is precisely the argument most of the Obama supporters in here have been making all along--that Hillary is unelectable, that she unites disaffected conservatives like no one else, that too many people in her own party look at her and are just reminded of Monica Lewinsky, etc. etc. Yes, there are also arguments to be made based on how both candidates have run their campaigns, but "not electable" seems to be nearly everyone's trump card.
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What fears do you think we Clinton supporters are embracing? The supporters you cyber-know.
the fear that America won't vote for a black man. that he's too risky. too unknown. and you know us. so vote for the known quantity. don't dream. don't strive to be better.
I get the feeling you're really talking about one person. But cynic's crusade + 'irritable' counter-crusade tends to create a dynamic in here that I think has caused several more moderate posters on both sides to throw up their hands and avoid these threads altogether, which is unfortunate. Your description certainly doesn't sound like most of the Clinton supporters I know in 'real' life.
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Old 04-13-2008, 08:27 PM   #82
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Obama Turns Table on Clinton

By BETH FOUHY
Associated Press, April 13


STEELTON, Penn. — Democrat Barack Obama lashed out Sunday at rival Hillary Rodham Clinton, mocking her sudden vocal support for gun rights and saying he understands the concerns of working class people. "She knows better. Shame on her. Shame on her," Obama told an audience at a union hall here.

The Illinois senator has spent two days on the defensive after comments he made at a San Francisco fundraiser suggesting working class people are bitter about their economic circumstances and "cling to guns and religion" as a result. Clinton has pounded him for the remarks, calling him "elitist and divisive."

After reiterating his regret for his choice of words, Obama turned the tables on Clinton—noting that she accepted campaign contributions from drug and insurance company lobbyists and mocking, among other things, her sudden fealty to the rights of gun owners. "She is running around talking about how this is an insult to sportsmen, how she values the Second Amendment. She's talking like she's Annie Oakley," Obama said, invoking the famed female sharpshooter immortalized in the musical Anne Get Your Gun. "Hillary Clinton is out there like she's on the duck blind every Sunday. She's packing a six-shooter. Come on, she knows better. That's some politics being played by Hillary Clinton."

Obama said the former first lady's history in the White House and Senate proved she was not as sensitive to the concerns of working class voters in Pennsylvania and elsewhere as she tried to suggest. Pennsylvania's primary is April 22. "I just have to remind people of the track record," Obama said. "This is the same person who took money from financial folks on Wall Street and then voted for bankruptcy bill that makes it harder for folks right here in Pennsylvania to get a fair shake. Who do you think is out of touch? This is the same person who spent a decade with her husband campaigning for NAFTA, and now goes around saying she's opposed to NAFTA," Obama said, referring to the North American Free Trade Agreement that is widely unpopular in blue collar communities.

The Clinton campaign issued a quick retort to Obama's comments. "For months, Barack Obama and his campaign have relentlessly attacked Hillary Clinton's character and integrity by using Republican talking points from the 1990s," said spokesman Phil Singer. "The shame is his. Senator Clinton does know better—she knows better than to condescend and talk down to voters like Senator Obama did."
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:41 PM   #83
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I'm so sick of this infighting!
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:42 PM   #84
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I'm so sick of this infighting!
And all the Dems in November will be : Wha'happen?
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:43 PM   #85
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And it's only April.
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:54 PM   #86
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Originally posted by VintagePunk

Why is it selfish only for her to stay in the race? Why doesn't Obama drop out for the good of the party/nation? Why is no one asking that? Does Obama have no personal ambitions, he's running purely out of altruism?


since it's late, i only have time to respond to this.

she has every right to run. of course. but the difference is that she cannot mathematically win, unless she can convince some sort of insurrection amongst the superdelegates. there is no path to the nomination for her beyond the total destruction of Obama.
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:00 PM   #87
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Originally posted by yolland

But this is precisely the argument most of the Obama supporters in here have been making all along--that Hillary is unelectable, that she unites disaffected conservatives like no one else, that too many people in her own party look at her and are just reminded of Monica Lewinsky, etc. etc. Yes, there are also arguments to be made based on how both candidates have run their campaigns, but "not electable" seems to be nearly everyone's trump card.



i agree that's always been a part of the argument from the beginning, for both camps. but as we see now, this is Hillary's *only* argument against Obama.

why doesn't she talk about health care? she's actually got him on that one.


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I get the feeling you're really talking about one person. But cynic's crusade + 'irritable' counter-crusade tends to create a dynamic in here that I think has caused several more moderate posters on both sides to throw up their hands and avoid these threads altogether, which is unfortunate. Your description certainly doesn't sound like most of the Clinton supporters I know in 'real' life.


i understand the dynamic you're talking about, but the "American won't vote for a black guy" narrative has been around since the SC primary and the male Clinton's talk about this "kid" and that hey, Jessie Jackson also won SC.

and if this is how the Democrats are reacting to Hillary, think of the polarization when the Republicans get into the mix.
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:14 PM   #88
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Originally posted by Harry Vest
Democratic voters in the United States Of America will get what they deserve for helping to keep Hillary in the race when she should of been thrown out along time ago...his name is John McCain. Remember all you Billary Democrats - you did this to yourselves and your country. You fools.


the only thing i'll say is that John McCain isn't *that* bad. he gave a very important foreign policy speech where he repudiated much of what's known as "cowboy diplomacy" and he certainly knows much more about the world than W. he's married to Iraq, and he knows it, but i don't actually believe that a McCain presidency would be a Bush Part 3, excepting Iraq.

back in 1999, i remember thinking that a Bush presidency would at best be a national embarrassment, and at worst apocalyptic. clearly, it's been apocalyptic.

i don't think McCain is in nearly the same category of ignorance and incompetency as Bush Jr.
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Old 04-14-2008, 07:03 AM   #89
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Originally posted by BonosSaint
But I've noticed here and elsewhere that the Obama supporters are pretty thin-skinned for likely winners. Sorry, but you can't expect all of us to shut up and fall in line. It's not a divine coronation, it's a bunch of politicians applying for the same job

I have to agree with that, and no matter who your candidate is some objectivity is in order-and it's healthy too.

I'm sick of the infighting too. Say hello to President McCain and four more years of bullshit. Now THAT will be some bitterness. I might even get a gun
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Old 04-14-2008, 07:28 AM   #90
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I'm growing tired of the infighting between Clinton and Obama, it's getting out of hand. They are doing a great job of making the Democrats look like idiots and the future of this country cannot afford for that to happen!
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Old 04-14-2008, 07:54 AM   #91
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On the Charlie Rose show in 2004

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Old 04-14-2008, 09:36 AM   #92
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Need I post Bill Clinton's "insecure white people" comments from '91?

I don't want to, because then this feud will just go on and on and on, and before we know it we'll be at the convention charging that one candidate is more elite than the other.

Maybe we should go back to Socrates and his views on those best fit to rule.
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Old 04-14-2008, 10:24 AM   #93
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Good that there is a candidate ready to put these working class yobs in their place.
I guess the joke's on you.
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Old 04-14-2008, 10:26 AM   #94
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Originally posted by deep




Are these "they" and "them" people
"typical white people" ?
Are you typically this ridiculous?
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Old 04-14-2008, 10:27 AM   #95
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Originally posted by deep



What the hell is Obama saying?



People vote against gay marriage because they don't think they can count on Washington?

Count on Washington for what?

To discriminate against gay people?

Is this what Obama's change will be?

To let people know that they can count on him to ban gay marriage?

And put assault guns back on the streets?

Are you for real?
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Old 04-14-2008, 10:32 AM   #96
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Welcome to FYM, acrobatique. This is an interesting place...with interesting people...
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Old 04-14-2008, 10:35 AM   #97
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Originally posted by Bluer White

He was against the war as an Illinois state senator
This alone wins my vote.
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Old 04-14-2008, 11:43 AM   #98
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Yet another reason this guy scares me.
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Old 04-14-2008, 12:14 PM   #99
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Originally posted by 2861U2
Yet another reason this guy scares me.
You're too easily frightened then.
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Old 04-14-2008, 12:24 PM   #100
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