Obama: Not Black?

[Devlin]

Gah? Lucy: you got some 'splainin' to do..

Really. I don't see how it's Obama's issue that his grandfather was a devoted muslim, or that he spent two years of his childhood in a Muslim school. Heh. It's like playing telephone, or something. Not like he had a choice. Still, if he gets on the ballot, I'd probably vote for him - he's done some good things in chicago.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Um...

http://www.observer.com/20070205/20070205_Jason_Horowitz_pageone_newsstory1.html


Mr. Biden is equally skeptical—albeit in a slightly more backhanded way—about Mr. Obama. “I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” he said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”

So I guess all the other ones were inarticulate, ugly, and dirty or something Do some of these people even think before they speak? I guess he meant that as some sort of compliment, it doesn't exactly come across that way when you read it. Don't know quite what to think about that one..

 

[INDY500]

Don't know quite what to think about that one..

Well, a Republican would immediately be labeled a bigot in this forum for such a comment. But Biden is a liberal Democrat, which complicates matters doesn't it?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Well, a Republican would immediately be labeled a bigot in this forum for such a comment. But Biden is a liberal Democrat, which complicates matters doesn't it?

I don't care what he is and it doesn't complicate matters for me at all-the comment is inappropriate and yes it comes across as bigoted to me. The implications are clearly there, like I said in my other post. I don't know quite what to make of it because I'm just shocked by it-then again these types of comments seem commonplace in politics these days.

 

[yolland]

Unfortunately it wouldn't be the first time Biden's made remarks like that, this one is worse but remember the thing about how you have to have an Indian accent to run a Dunkin Donuts in his area.

 

[INDY500]

I don't care what he is and it doesn't complicate matters for me at all-the comment is inappropriate and yes it comes across as bigoted to me. The implications are clearly there, like I said in my other post. I don't know quite what to make of it because I'm just shocked by it-then again these types of comments seem commonplace in politics these days.

I added "in this forum" hoping that you wouldn't think I was referring only to you as I believe you are sincere when you say party identification doesn't matter to you in these situations.

But be fair, if Mitt Romney says this, it's a 20 page "Mitt Romney exposes himself a bigot" thread isn't it?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Yes I remember that Indian comment too It's disgraceful, there is no place for such comments by any politicians. But they're just words, right? Joe Biden should have a guest role on Grey's Anatomy

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I added "in this forum" hoping that you wouldn't think I was referring only to you as I believe you are sincere when you say party identification doesn't matter to you in these situations.

Thanks, I really appreciate that. And you're correct, I am sincere.

Maybe if you started such a thread about Biden it would reach numerous or 20 pages I certainly have no qualms about such a thread, I judge him just like I do anyone else who makes such comments.

 

[redhotswami]

Well, a Republican would immediately be labeled a bigot in this forum for such a comment. But Biden is a liberal Democrat, which complicates matters doesn't it?

I don't know if I'd agree. If that statement had come from anybodys else's mouth I'd still be angry and quick to apply all other sorts of labels besides bigot.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Biden "clarifies" his comments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcX_xfuivbs

Clean as a whistle, sharp as a tack. He is "crisp and clear". It sounds like a Tide commercial or something

 

[deep]

Clean as a whistle, sharp as a tack. He is "crisp and clear".

But is Obama really?

Would you vote for a regular smoker?

What does this say about his judgement?

Self-discipline?

What kind of example does this set?

 

[redhotswami]

But is Obama really?

Would you vote for a regular smoker?

What does this say about his judgement?

Self-discipline?

What kind of example does this set?

or...you can always vote on the ISSUES and not on their PERSONAL LIFESTYLE.

 

[martha]

But is Obama really?

Would you vote for a regular smoker?

What does this say about his judgement?

Self-discipline?

What kind of example does this set?

A crappy one. But if that's all there is to worry about, I think I'll be ok with him.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

or...you can always vote on the ISSUES and not on their PERSONAL LIFESTYLE.

this is true, of course... but obama is being sold as the person, not the issues. they didn't make him the keynote speaker at the democratic convention and rumored to be a potential 2008 democratic nominee for president before ever even setting foot inside congress because of "the issues."

there's a lot of hype around obama, not much substance... yet. he obviously has a ton of potential, but i see him getting stomped in the primaries due to his lack of experience (which is exactly how he got stomped in his first run for national office back in his failed attempt at a house of representitives spot).

 

[CTU2fan]

I think it's sort of funny how it's "OK" to question Obama's candidacy because he's descended from Muslims & went to a Muslim school...I guess the bigots had to find something. The racists don't have the balls to say what they really mean (that they don't want a black President), so they hide behind religious bigotry, which is still getting a pass in the US (as long as it's anti-Muslim bigotry, that is).

 

[Irvine511]

Well, a Republican would immediately be labeled a bigot in this forum for such a comment. But Biden is a liberal Democrat, which complicates matters doesn't it?

Biden is a liberal democrat?

he's one of the more hawkish democrats around.

 

[INDY500]

Biden is a liberal democrat?

he's one of the more hawkish democrats around.

Wow, that's really saying something.

According to the latest National Journal Composite Liberal Score (2005) Joe Biden rates a 80/100.

Which to put in context.
Joe Lieberman 66
The Jr senator from DE Tom Carper rated 71
Hillary Clinton 80 (same score)
Chris Dodd 80 (same score)
Barack Obama 83
John McCain 41
Trent Lott 12

Biden is a liberal, but yes, he's more reasonable than say, Ted Kennedy(97).

 

[redhotswami]

Wow, that's really saying something.

According to the latest National Journal Composite Liberal Score (2005) Joe Biden rates a 80/100.

Which to put in context.
Joe Lieberman 66
The Jr senator from DE Tom Carper rated 71
Hillary Clinton 80 (same score)
Chris Dodd 80 (same score)
Barack Obama 83
John McCain 41
Trent Lott 12

Biden is a liberal, but yes, he's more reasonable than say, Ted Kennedy(97).

Edit: NM

 

[Irvine511]

Wow, that's really saying something.

According to the latest National Journal Composite Liberal Score (2005) Joe Biden rates a 80/100.

Which to put in context.
Joe Lieberman 66
The Jr senator from DE Tom Carper rated 71
Hillary Clinton 80 (same score)
Chris Dodd 80 (same score)
Barack Obama 83
John McCain 41
Trent Lott 12

Biden is a liberal, but yes, he's more reasonable than say, Ted Kennedy(97).

oh, the NATIONAL JOURNAL! phew!

no, not unbiased or with many bones to pick at all.

 

[MissMoo]

I just wanted to add that on Jon Stewart (I know it's not real news) He mentioned that Hillary Clinton was not the source of the Obama story.

 

[INDY500]

oh, the NATIONAL JOURNAL! phew!

no, not unbiased or with many bones to pick at all.

There are many such ratings from many different sources and viewpoints (most of which require a subscription I don't have), but I'm curious.
How would the Democratic candidates fare on the Irvine511 Liberal Composite Score?

My subjective ratings (most liberal to least)

Kucinich
Karl Marx (if he were running)
Edwards
Dodds
Obama
H Clinton
Wes Clark
Biden
Richardson
Bayh (whom I would have voted for)

Vilsack (who knows)(who cares)

So I would rate Biden lower than all serious candidates other than Richardson.

 

[CTU2fan]

Ya I generally think of Biden as one of the more Con-ish Dems...him & Joe Lieberman.

 

[maycocksean]

Well, a Republican would immediately be labeled a bigot in this forum for such a comment. But Biden is a liberal Democrat, which complicates matters doesn't it?

While you would definitely find me on the liberal end of most arguments in this forum, I must agree with Indy on this. Biden's getting a pass because he's a Democrat which I think is a damn shame. We may all quietly agree that Biden is a racist but it won't fill 20 pages, that's for sure.

Even on this thread, the silence in regards to Biden's quote is deafening (except for the lone voice of Mrs. S calling a spade a spade regardless of political party affiliation).

As to Biden's comment itself, I'd always thought that the first black president would be a Republican because the Dems would never stoop to using racist tactics to scare white people away from voting for him the way the Republicans would. But I guess I was wrong.

 

[martha]

The silence could be the result of crushing embarrassment and disappointment.

 

[yolland]

For better or for worse, when threads on such topics run to high page counts, it's generally because one or more posters disagree with the premise, and the resulting debate is what draws things out--e.g. the Allen thread (where the very first reply was to disagree), the Virginia slavery resolution thread, the Grey's Anatomy thread, Mel Gibson etc. Speaking for myself, and since the Allen thread seems to be the point of comparison here, I never personally called Allen a "bigot" and only posted in that thread to get people who disagreed with its premise to explain what "macaca" meant, if not a racial slur (and I didn't feel I ever got a convincing response). I suppose if someone regularly posts simply to express unadorned judgments like "Disgusting" or "What a bigot" in threads featuring alleged Republican racists, but not Democratic ones, then yes that would be hypocrisy. But not everyone makes posts of that type. Biden wouldn't get my vote and I agree his comments were repulsive, however, for FYM purposes I really don't have anything substantive to say about them, unless and until there's something to be analyzed and debated in either his words or someone's reactions to them.

However, if MrsS is willing, I'd be happy to separate out the posts about Biden's Obama comments into a new thread and see if anyone wishes to deny that his comments were racist (or critique that labeling of them, etc.). Other than that, I agree with MrsS' response--by all means, go ahead and start threads on Biden or whatever other Dems you think are bigots if you feel that gets chronically short shrift. I think that would get the message across more effectively than only bringing it up as a tangent in threads about 'incidents' involving Republicans. Perhaps it boils down to a question of what you think threads like that are 'for'--I tend to see FYM as "Sit down and discuss" not "Stand up and be counted" so personally, I wouldn't conclude much of anything if I posted, without argument, an article about someone making a racist/sexist/anti-Semitic/etc. comment and hardly anyone replied. IMHO, it's a little silly to treat an online forum as some foolproof barometer of what people "really" stand for, for good or for bad.

 

[Dreadsox]

I heard a politcal analyst on good morning America say that the Biden comments were a good thing for Obama.....because the African American community does not see him as being black.

I guess Biden is relevant to the thread.

That said, damn, I liked Biden up until he spoke this week. I was there in 1988 when his campaign got in trouble for plagiarizing speeches from a british politician if I am not mistaken. LOL He is done.

 

[verte76]

Biden stuck his foot in his mouth. I never thought he'd say such trash. But he's just another politician.

 

[maycocksean]

For better or for worse, when threads on such topics run to high page counts, it's generally because one or more posters disagree with the premise, and the resulting debate is what draws things out--e.g. the Allen thread (where the very first reply was to disagree), the Virginia slavery resolution thread, the Grey's Anatomy thread, Mel Gibson etc. Speaking for myself, and since the Allen thread seems to be the point of comparison here, I never personally called Allen a "bigot" and only posted in that thread to get people who disagreed with its premise to explain what "macaca" meant, if not a racial slur (and I didn't feel I ever got a convincing response). I suppose if someone regularly posts simply to express unadorned judgments like "Disgusting" or "What a bigot" in threads featuring alleged Republican racists, but not Democratic ones, then yes that would be hypocrisy. But not everyone makes posts of that type. Biden wouldn't get my vote and I agree his comments were repulsive, however, for FYM purposes I really don't have anything substantive to say about them, unless and until there's something to be analyzed and debated in either his words or someone's reactions to them.

However, if MrsS is willing, I'd be happy to separate out the posts about Biden's Obama comments into a new thread and see if anyone wishes to deny that his comments were racist (or critique that labeling of them, etc.). Other than that, I agree with MrsS' response--by all means, go ahead and start threads on Biden or whatever other Dems you think are bigots if you feel that gets chronically short shrift. I think that would get the message across more effectively than only bringing it up as a tangent in threads about 'incidents' involving Republicans. Perhaps it boils down to a question of what you think threads like that are 'for'--I tend to see FYM as "Sit down and discuss" not "Stand up and be counted" so personally, I wouldn't conclude much of anything if I posted, without argument, an article about someone making a racist/sexist/anti-Semitic/etc. comment and hardly anyone replied. IMHO, it's a little silly to treat an online forum as some foolproof barometer of what people "really" stand for, for good or for bad.

I see your point, but I still maintain there is an element of basic human hypocrisy. . .I'm not necessarily saying that something should be "done about it", just pointing it out. I think conservative and liberals are just as likely to gloss over, ignore, or explain away the failings of those on "their" side. I think it often comes of attaching the person's failing to a general excoriation and condemnation of the other side. (i.e. "Allen's a horrible racist and this just proves what the 'racist-religious-right-Republican crowd is doing to our country etc" ) When it's your own guy being a racist you're obviously not going to use that as an opportunity to tear down Democrats/liberals as a whole. So you're left the perfunctory "what a jerk" or silence. And again, I do think it works vice versa.

 

[anitram]

I've been overseas so I missed this bit.

I've always been very negative about Biden on this site, years ago, and let's face it, he has no chance anyway. He's an opportunistic old windbag at best. I can't believe anyone would even take his candidacy seriously.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

He's on 60 Minutes Sunday

Acknowledging that his presidential campaign has opened a racial debate, Sen. Barack Obama, who has a white mother and an African father, says if you look African-American, you are treated like one. Obama and his wife, Michelle, who also addresses the race issue, appear in an interview with Steve Kroft to be broadcast on 60 MINUTES, Sunday Feb. 11 (7:00-8:00 PM, ET/PT) on the CBS television Network. If, as expected, Obama declares his formal candidacy for the Democratic presidential nomination tomorrow, it will be his first interview to be broadcast after that event.

When asked by Kroft if growing up in a white household had caused him to make a decision to be black, Obama replies, "I'm not sure I decided it. I think... if you look African American in this society, you're treated as an African-American "It's interesting though, that now I feel very comfortable and confident in terms of who I am and where I stake my ground. But I notice that... I've become a focal point for a racial debate," says Obama.

Obama's wife also addresses the race issue when asked by Kroft whether she fears for her husband's life as a black candidate. "I don't lose sleep over it because the realities are that... as a black man... Barack can get shot going to the gas station," says Michelle Obama. "You can't make decisions based on fear and the possibility of what might happen."

Will being African-American hold him back as a candidate? "No.... If I don't win this race it will be because of other factors --[that] I have not shown to the American people a vision for where the country needs to go that they can embrace," Obama tells Kroft.

There's some video on their site

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/60minutes/main3415.shtml