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Old 04-23-2012, 02:43 PM   #81
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and given that Bush inherited a SURPLUS ...
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:52 PM   #82
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say what you want
but he made short work of that surplus, (quite an accomplishment for those that want less government)
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Old 04-23-2012, 03:20 PM   #83
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You know of all the truly stupid criticisms of Obama (and there are fair ones, which I've pointed out here, like the ACA being a crappy piece of legislation open to constitutional challenge, like Geithner not being fired, etc), the gas prices has got to be one of the stupidest.

Since when do prices of oil per barrel fall under the control of the US president?? I mean did we all wake up and suddenly OPEC disappeared? Strife in the middle east no longer existed and impacted gas prices? Demand in the developing world vanished?

Just too stupid for words, honestly.
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Old 04-23-2012, 04:15 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers View Post
Why? I have no idea how the President would be at fault? Does he fly the things? Also, you could argue that his influence in relation to this was a positive. Obama is known as Drone Fan # 1. You could argue its situations like this that highlight their value. Shit like this happens from time to time, but now, there's not the added issue of a US pilot or two in a prison in Tehran. So, thumbs up?
No need to get testy with me, im a big fan of drones myself since we began deploying them in action back in 2001.

However....and yes stuff does happen....a president is judged not only on the economy but also foreign policy. As Commander in Chief of the military you are responsible for what goes down on your watch, Good Or Bad. Remember Abu Ghraib?

So yeah, we need to have this discussion. They have in their possession one of our top secret stealth drone aircrafts...they are flaunting this and they apparently have no intention on giving it back.....that's kind of a big deal. Second time this administration has lost something like this...thinking of the helicopter in the Pakistan raid.
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Old 04-23-2012, 04:18 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel View Post
Yeah, be it Obama or Romney or whomever, nobody is going to be able to clean this mess up in a few short years. The Bush administration left us with a long-term mess we have to clean up in all sorts of areas. Ten years from now we'll probably still be cleaning up the mess from 2000-2008 in some form or another, unless a serious miracle occurs.

Obama deserves criticism for the areas where he's failed to change what Bush has done, where he hasn't worked harder, and so forth. Absolutely. He's not free from blame here, either.

But anyone expecting this to be fixed in the short term, Obama included, was being very optimistic, which is certainly nice-a positive attitude should be a good motivator to get people at least starting to take care of things. However, they were also very, very naive.
So Bush owns 2000 - 2008 yet somehow Obama is not accountable for 2009 - present?

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Old 04-23-2012, 04:25 PM   #86
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And this can't be good!



Quote:
..

North Korea issues unusually specific threat


North Korea's military vowed a new and unusually specific threat to its neighbors, saying it would reduce South Korea "to ashes" in less than four minutes.

The statement, released Monday when programming was interrupted on North Korea's state TV by a special report, comes amid rising tensions on the Korean peninsula.

Earlier this month, North Korea was unsuccessful in a long-range missile launch, prompting worries that North Korea may conduct another nuclear test. South Korean officials say new satellite images show that North Korea has been digging a tunnel in what appears to be preparation for a third atomic test.

According to the Associated Press, the statement from North Korea was unusual in promising something soon and in describing a specific period of time.

The North Korean military threatened to "reduce all the rat-like groups and the bases for provocations to ashes in three or four minutes, (or) in much shorter time, by unprecedented peculiar means and methods of our own style."

For months the North has castigated South Korean President Lee Myung-bak and the conservative administration for insulting their leadership and criticizing a new cruise missile capable of striking anywhere in the south.

South Korean officials responded, urging North Korea to end the threats. "We urge North Korea to immediately stop this practice," Unification Ministry spokesman Kim Hyung-suk said, according to the Associated Press. "We express deep concern that the North's threats and accusations have worsened inter-Korean ties and heightened tensions."

Meanwhile, in a meeting Sunday with a North Korean delegation in Beijing, China's senior official on foreign policy praised the leadership shown by North Korea's new young leader, Kim Jong Un.

The meeting follows the April 13 launch of what the United States called a disguised ballistic missile test by North Korea. The rocket disintegrated minutes after launch.

-- With reporting by Ron Recinto
North Korea issues unusually specific threat | The Envoy - Yahoo! News

Ive posted before in another thread about my experiences in South Korea, and how much they had grown even from 1992 - 1997 when i returned. I seriously hope this is just more of the same old sabre rattling from the North, hoping to get some food aid or something like that. If they ever did launch something it would be utterly devastating and a complete disaster for the entire region...and i suspect we would be right smack dab in the middle of it all.

So much shit goes on over there that we don't hear about...so something like this is specifically alarming.

Lets hope people come to their senses...
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Old 04-23-2012, 04:30 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Mrs. Garrison View Post
No need to get testy with me, im a big fan of drones myself since we began deploying them in action back in 2001.

However....and yes stuff does happen....a president is judged not only on the economy but also foreign policy. As Commander in Chief of the military you are responsible for what goes down on your watch, Good Or Bad. Remember Abu Ghraib?
Yes, a president is judged on foreign policy. Take a look at where the presumptive Republican nominee stands on foreign policy and then ask yourself if that would really be an improvement. And if we're going to compare losing a drone to Abu Ghraib, well, I'd rather lose 10 drones then have another Abu Ghraib incident.

Quote:
Second time this administration has lost something like this...thinking of the helicopter in the Pakistan raid.
Wait, what? They lose a helicopter (which they destroyed before leaving) while executing an extremely high-risk stealth operation that ended in the successful capture and killing of Public Enemy #1, and you're busting Obama's balls for the chopper?
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Old 04-23-2012, 04:31 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Mrs. Garrison View Post
And this can't be good!





North Korea issues unusually specific threat | The Envoy - Yahoo! News

Ive posted before in another thread about my experiences in South Korea, and how much they had grown even from 1992 - 1997 when i returned. I seriously hope this is just more of the same old sabre rattling from the North, hoping to get some food aid or something like that.
Given how spectacularly their last missile launch failed, I'd go with the sabre rattling.
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Old 04-23-2012, 04:38 PM   #89
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Second time this administration has lost something like this...thinking of the helicopter in the Pakistan raid.
It's like we're reaching new levels of ridiculousness.

Did the crew of that helicopter not DESTROY it after it was damaged in a "hard landing"? Can you imagine if this kind of criticism was leveled against Bush? We'd all be accused of being terrorist-sympathizing haters of the troops.
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Old 04-23-2012, 04:43 PM   #90
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As Commander in Chief of the military you are responsible for what goes down on your watch, Good Or Bad. Remember Abu Ghraib?
Abu Ghraib, the discussion was about how far up the chain of command were these orders made and allowed to happen?

Losing a drone comes down to a technical defect(Obama didn't design the drone) and/ or a faulty pilot. From what I've read, it was both.

So how are these the same?
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Old 04-23-2012, 05:07 PM   #91
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Why the fuck should Iran give it back?
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Old 04-23-2012, 05:20 PM   #92
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I could write a fairly scathing view of how I think the first term for Obama has gone...but I don't see the use. It all comes down to one thing; fiscal policy.

We have to get the deficit and debt under control for the benefit of not only U.S. citizens but the world economy.

The alternative to Obama believes we can run the American Government on 18% federal revenues relative to GDP. Proven across a twenty year span, 100% fact based numbers and math, to create deficits. Even with Republican control of everything. As long we only have two choices, that alone is reason enough to vote for Obama. Period.
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:12 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Yes, a president is judged on foreign policy. Take a look at where the presumptive Republican nominee stands on foreign policy and then ask yourself if that would really be an improvement. And if we're going to compare losing a drone to Abu Ghraib, well, I'd rather lose 10 drones then have another Abu Ghraib incident.
Diemen, i used Abu Ghraib as an example, because we all know very well the public reaction to that one. Bush (who is not currently the GOP nominee) was certainly held accountable for that one, so im curious why losing a secret drone doesn't make the current Potus accountable? Actually, you don't have to answer that one...

Or the Secret Service Scandal with the Colombian Prostitutes
Or the GSA scandal
Or SSG Bales killing spree this year in Afghanistan
Or Maj Hassan's killing spree at Ft Hood in 2009
Or troops urinating on dead Afghans
Or the Fast & Furious Scandal
Or Solyndra Scandal

No need to answer for any of the above, Obama's not accountable for any of this right? Must be Bush's fault too


Quote:
Wait, what? They lose a helicopter (which they destroyed before leaving) while executing an extremely high-risk stealth operation that ended in the successful capture and killing of Public Enemy #1, and you're busting Obama's balls for the chopper?
I've said on here before, and i will say it again, hats off to Obama for killing Bin Laden.

It is understandable, under the consequences, that a helicopter was lost. I realize you were never in the military and probably do not realize how important it is not to leave something that sensitive behind, but believe me it is. (I can personally remember where our entire unit had a massive search lasting for hours to find a missing gas mask) It happened once...and then we have the drone missing...now this is bad.

And btw, they didn't completely destroy the helicopter as you can see from this picture:



And then we have these allegations, which i don't personally believe but will leave up to the reader to decide what to make of it:

If even some of this is true Obama is so much more dangerous than we thought � � Coach is RightCoach is Right

Quote:
If even some of this is true Obama is so much more dangerous than we thought

By Coach Collins, on April 23rd, 2012


By George Spelvin, staff writer

Years of living dangerously off of the U.S. taxpayers’ dime have certainly served the Obama-Dunham family well according to investigative journalist Wayne Madsen. Nevertheless, the downside for America is the Islamazation of Africa and Asia in a remarkable example of unintended consequences of foreign entanglements gone bad- very bad, indeed.

A Wayne Madsen 32 page pdf file is opening up a Pandora’s Box of American foreign aid money dispensed wildly and broadly overseas. The reporter cites American dollars intended to buy starving villagers rice actually going to finance foreign military weapons purchases for various wars, conflicts, and insurgencies. Our tax dollars earned through the hard work and sweat equity have not been used to our benefit but rather to further the Islamazation of these continents which is now almost complete.

The very aims and actions of politicians, faceless bureaucrats, foreign service operatives both covertly and not covertly have come back to bite America at a time when our own citizens are suffering through economic trouble. The investigative reporter’s dogged pursuit of the Obama-Dunham family odyssey in places from Jakarta to Jalalabad, and from the Ford Foundation to the Oval Office makes for fascinating reading: But how to verify it?

Rumors abound that Madsen has grown so fearful for his life that he has broken up with a long time companion and left the country. A noted author and syndicated columnist; Madsen’s reports have been widely circulated. He is the author of “Genocide and Covert Operations in Africa” and “Jaded Tasks: Big Oil, Black Ops & Brass Plates.”

A picture of Stanley Ann Dunham “visiting a Balinese duck farm officially as part of her work to secure bank loans for small businesses” is included in the five part report of international intrigue and American dollars. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner’s father Peter Geithner acted as the Ford Foundation’s grant selector for projects in Indonesia, and President Obama’s mother worked for or with him as Madsen reports.

The report’s dizzying array of abbreviations, acronyms, NGO’s and many other groups obfuscate duties, dollars and destinies.

What a labyrinth to wade through! Lost sight of in all of this overseas stewpot are the unsuspecting U.S. citizens who pay for everything. But where is Madsen now? Is all of what he says true? He filed communiqués from the Obama Korean summit recently, that much we know, but is he safe?

What really is apropos here is the admonishment of George Washington who warned America in his Farewell Address delivered to our new nation on 17 September 1796. Washington said, “Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence the jealousy of free people ought to be constantly awake since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of a republican government.”

Could any of our politicians look into the eyes of America’s founder and say they have followed his advice when it comes to foreign aid? Mightily served by our founding fathers, America has been miserably served by her politicians!

To contact your Congressional Representative use this link: Contacting the Congress: A Citizen's Congressional Directory

To read more about this story use these links:

http://exopolitics.blogs.com/files/w...he-company.pdf

"George Washington's Farewell Address">
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:14 PM   #94
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Why the fuck should Iran give it back?
If you are talking to me, please do not use this type of language towards me.
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:22 PM   #95
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Diemen, i used Abu Ghraib as an example, because we all know very well the public reaction to that one. Bush (who is not currently the GOP nominee) was certainly held accountable for that one,

who in the Bush administration went to jail over this?
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:27 PM   #96
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Given how spectacularly their last missile launch failed, I'd go with the sabre rattling.
I hope so, but technically the country is still at war / cease fire

And North Korea has a history of aggressive behaviour to include artillery they launched at Yeonpyeong island back in Nov 2010. There are also fence-line shootings between the north and south that occur along the DMZ quite often...yet we never hear about them.

Spies defecting, assassinations, subs running ashore with a crew dead by execution...all spooky stuff that doesn't make the 5 o'clock news.

and during a full scale war, they were pretty brutal:

Quote:
Total civilians killed/wounded: 2.5 million (est.)[2]
South Korea: 990,968
373,599 killed[2]
229,625 wounded[2]
387,744 abducted/missing[2]
North Korea: 1,550,000 (est.)[2]
Their army:

Quote:
North Korea is the most militarized country in the world today,[6] having the fourth largest army in the world, at about 1,106,000 armed personnel, with about 20% of men ages 17–54 in the regular armed forces.[7] Military service of up to 10 years is mandatory for most males. It also has a reserve force comprising 7,700,000 personnel.[8] It operates an enormous network of military facilities scattered around the country, a large weapons production basis, a dense air defense system,[9] the third largest chemical weapons stockpile in the world,[10] and includes the world's largest Special Forces contingent (numbering 180,000 men).[11] While the aging equipment,[12] deriving from the economic plight of the country, is seen as major defect of the North Korean military capability, it is nevertheless regarded as a significant threat due to its size and proximity to major civilian areas.
The terrain is mountainous, rugged, and very hot and humid in the summers with a monsoon season and also very very cold in the winters. There is NO good time to fight a war on this peninsula. It is estimated that the tens of thousands of US troops stationed between the DMZ and Seoul (2ID) would be nothing more than "speed bumps" in the wake of an all out invasion...and that North Korea has the potential to pummel Seoul with its long range artillery.

So yeah, their rockets might not work very well, but their million + man army fighting in the trenches along with the heavy artillery is enough to inflict massive casualties. Not good.
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:28 PM   #97
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And then we have these allegations, which i don't personally believe but will leave up to the reader to decide what to make of it:

If even some of this is true Obama is so much more dangerous than we thought � � Coach is RightCoach is Right



this is insane and irresponsible, and you're "i report, you decide" "gawsh, i'm just a guy askin' questions" disclaimer doesn't change the fact that this is even farther out there than Birther territory. why don't you start posting the articles that claim that Obama is a trained KGB operative? that's at least more entertaining.
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:29 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Mrs. Garrison View Post
Diemen, i used Abu Ghraib as an example, because we all know very well the public reaction to that one. Bush (who is not currently the GOP nominee) was certainly held accountable for that one, so im curious why losing a secret drone doesn't make the current Potus accountable? Actually, you don't have to answer that one...

Or the Secret Service Scandal with the Colombian Prostitutes
Or the GSA scandal
Or SSG Bales killing spree this year in Afghanistan
Or Maj Hassan's killing spree at Ft Hood in 2009
Or troops urinating on dead Afghans
Or the Fast & Furious Scandal
Or Solyndra Scandal
You've turned into a Hannity wannabe throwing shit and hoping some of it sticks. You haven't engaged one person in here trying to speak to the specifics of any of these, or why one event is different from another.
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:41 PM   #99
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Blaming the Bush Administration for Abu Ghraib seems silly to me; no one really knows how far that went up the chain of command.

Blaming Bush for pro-cyclical fiscal policy that helped to manufacture the recession? Probably partially true. The 2002 tax cuts were probably a pretty bad idea. The Fed's loose monetary policy in the early 2000s were also probably a bad idea, although they did start raising interest rates eventually. That's not directly Bush's fault, but he did appoint Alan Greenspan (just like Reagen, Bush 41, and Clinton). An out-of-control financial sector and a public that proved itself less than financially competent were major problems too. The latter can't really be regulated. The former can, and lack of regulation can be blamed on the Bush Administration and Republicans, but it can also be blamed on Democrats for not making any effort to change anything.

I still wrestle with the problem of stimulus. The Keynesian in me (generally the overwhelming force) says that, without that stimulus, we probably would have seen a much deeper recession and probably significantly worse deficit-to-GDP ratios in the long term. The Keynesian in me also says that, without stricter regulation and active monetary and fiscal policy to cool the economy whenever it starts booming again, this will all be for naught and the next recession will be deeper than this one and more money will be spent in recovery... and that is unsustainable. And maybe it is politically impossible for the United States to cool its economy while it grows; maybe that's just an inherent flaw in Keynesianism, that Keynesianism cannot ever actually be truly implemented, because of how politically tough it is for a democracy to attempt to cool its economy when it is booming. Another boom-recession cycle like this one would probably damage Keynesianism in my eyes, because Keynesian recessionary policy does not account for the potential impossibility of Keynesian boom-time policy. I am not totally sure. But without the stimulus spending of the Obama Administration (and the late Bush Administration, and their respective Congresses), I do fear that the US economy could be in a significantly worse position with worse long-term deficit prospects, in terms of potential to raise revenue.
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:46 PM   #100
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And btw, they didn't completely destroy the helicopter as you can see from this picture:

Is it your claim then that the troops involved in the Bin Laden raid were incompetent?

That's certainly a surprising take.
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