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Old 07-19-2012, 10:23 PM   #561
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Hey, the right felt like they HAD to get proof of Obama's birth certificate, so now it's our turn *Shrugs*.

Besides, I would think one would want to know about his taxes. I mean, after all, there are those out there who are yelling at us lower-class people who are under or unemployed because we're "refusing" to pay our fair share in taxes, if we pay at all ('cause naturally we're opting out just for the hell of it). So if Romney's hiding money in tax havens to avoid paying what he's supposed to pay, I expect those same people criticizing us will be just as upset with him for tax dodging, right?

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Originally Posted by Caleb8844 View Post
I completely agree that those types of attacks lower the level of political dialogue in the country; nearly every time I hear a conservative bring up the birth certificate, his religion, etc. I call them down on it.

But the criticisms I was talking about were completely different. I criticized

which was responded to with



My point was that liberals often seem to think that because Bush wasn't criticized as much as he should've been on the above things, Obama can't be, either.
Apologies, then (and I'm glad you're in agreement on the type of "criticism" that doesn't help).

But that's not exactly what liberals are saying. What they're saying is, Obama's doing a lot of the same things Bush did, and if someone wants to criticize Obama for that stuff, fine, but the same criticism should've been leveled at Bush as well. And to stay quiet when Bush did all this stuff only to suddenly get all vocal when Obama does it, well, either we wonder what took people so long or we have to think there might be other reasons for the criticism, reasons that have nothing to do with those actual issues at hand.
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Old 07-20-2012, 12:05 AM   #562
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all i know is for most of bush's presidency if anyone dared to criticise him for the slightest thing, we got attacked for being unamerican. yet if the right does the same to obama...what? i don't hear the left saying that, and i guess now that there is a democrat in power it's suddenly not unamerican to criticise the president? so much for that united front many loved to go on about during that rah-rah wrap yourself in the american flag period.

it didn't seem like anyone from the right wanted to admit maybe bush wasn't amazing and perfect until aboooout, umm...2008? right about when he entered lame duck territory and the economy turned to shit. though even now the latter's still being placed solely on obama's shoulders when it sure as hell wasn't his fault the economy stunk when he became president. (and before anyone attacks me for that comment, no i'm not talking about how the economy is now, i'm talking in january 2009 only.)
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Old 07-20-2012, 12:46 AM   #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KhanadaRhodes View Post
all i know is for most of bush's presidency if anyone dared to criticise him for the slightest thing, we got attacked for being unamerican. yet if the right does the same to obama...what? i don't hear the left saying that, and i guess now that there is a democrat in power it's suddenly not unamerican to criticise the president? so much for that united front many loved to go on about during that rah-rah wrap yourself in the american flag period.
Yeah, every last word of this. "Love it or leave it", remember, everyone?
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Old 07-20-2012, 01:24 AM   #564
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Yeah, every last word of this. "Love it or leave it", remember, everyone?
exactly. we were told if we hated it, we should move to france. the left (well aside from maybe some fringe lefties but i'm talking about the masses here, on both sides) has said nothing of the sort since obama's presidency. the closest i can think of is when people have made threats like "if obamacare becomes legal i'll move to..." and then we wondered in jest if they really would, knowing they were full of shit.
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Old 07-20-2012, 02:31 PM   #565
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Obama with a known terrorist.

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Old 07-20-2012, 03:13 PM   #566
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HRC won't allow anyone to talk bad about her beautiful Huma that way.
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:21 PM   #567
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exactly. we were told if we hated it, we should move to france. the left (well aside from maybe some fringe lefties but i'm talking about the masses here, on both sides) has said nothing of the sort since obama's presidency. the closest i can think of is when people have made threats like "if obamacare becomes legal i'll move to..." and then we wondered in jest if they really would, knowing they were full of shit.
The low point of that era seemed to me to be the Dixie Chicks thing. That whole episode was pretty disturbing, the way a relatively small number of people in the media and political circles could whip up a quasi-fascist witchhunt against what was seen as dissent.
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:23 PM   #568
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Absolutely. What they said wasn't even that big a deal. Ashamed to be from the same state as Bush. (Not sure what else Maines said later to add fuel to the fire, but that's what started it all off.)

Ted Nugent says threatening shit about Obama .... and he gets trotted out as some bullshit prime example of "real Americans" or whatever on Fox News.
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:14 PM   #569
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I saw that documentary about it. 'Shut Up And Sing'? I think it was called.
It's fucking stupid how something so trivial basically ruined their career.

1 album over the last ten years.

And it wasn't like they were a shitty band like so many other modern country acts.
They were pretty damn good.
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:52 PM   #570
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i saw the Chicks in DC not long after the controversy. great concert. they nearly sold out the Verizon Center. when they played "Not Ready To Make Nice" the crowd went bonkers and held up WE LOVE YOU signs. and it was awesome -- they're really good musicians. it's too bad Natalie is a little person and they force her to stand on what are essentially stilts and as a result she can't move around much.
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:15 PM   #571
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Note that the Obama campaign has not released its numbers for June, so we can't say for sure that they are behind Romney. Even if they are behind, we don't know by how much.
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Old 07-20-2012, 10:41 PM   #572
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Ha, this is a hoot. I've noticed here in my liberal college town all the ""Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" bumperstickers disappeared about 3 years ago.

Dissent of any form now being "racist" of course.

Bushitler... ah, good times.
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Old 07-20-2012, 10:52 PM   #573
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That's because we're allowed to dissent now.
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Old 07-20-2012, 11:00 PM   #574
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I liked the album that "Not Ready to Make Nice" was on. Good stuff. I never understood the big fuss over that statement, either.

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Dissent of any form now being "racist" of course.
Except, no. I just listed some areas a page or two back where I would critique Obama. There is legitimate criticism out there on both sides, and I'll gladly listen to it when I hear it and discuss it.

But please don't tell me you honestly don't think that some of the criticism of him is racially motivated. The whole "birther" thing, the "secret Muslim" BS, the people at some rallies who held up signs with racial epithets, the infamous shot of him as a scary voodoo witch doctor. What is that if not racist?
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:31 AM   #575
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Obama with a known terrorist.

Proud of yourself Michelle?

yahoo.com

Huma Abedin's week got a bit scarier on Sunday when federal officials ordered extra security to her house after a New Jersey man threatened her.

The New York Post is reporting a Muslim man from New Jersey threatened Abedin after Michelle Bachman accused her of having ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. The man was questioned by the NYPD but charges haven't been filed.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:57 AM   #576
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I am not in favour of an overly litigious society but if I were Huma Abedin, I'd lawyer up and go after Michele Bachmann (and the other trolls) with a libel and/or slander suit.
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:56 AM   #577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KhanadaRhodes View Post
all i know is for most of bush's presidency if anyone dared to criticise him for the slightest thing, we got attacked for being unamerican. yet if the right does the same to obama...what? i don't hear the left saying that, and i guess now that there is a democrat in power it's suddenly not unamerican to criticise the president? so much for that united front many loved to go on about during that rah-rah wrap yourself in the american flag period.

it didn't seem like anyone from the right wanted to admit maybe bush wasn't amazing and perfect until aboooout, umm...2008? right about when he entered lame duck territory and the economy turned to shit. though even now the latter's still being placed solely on obama's shoulders when it sure as hell wasn't his fault the economy stunk when he became president. (and before anyone attacks me for that comment, no i'm not talking about how the economy is now, i'm talking in january 2009 only.)

You have Americans saying that President Bush is a war criminal, that he is hitler, an idiot and compare him to a chimp. Do you expect his supporters to simply say, "look we understand your criticism and don't feel uncomfortable with the way you criticize the President." Of course not. When faced with such attacks, especially when the country is involved in multiple wars, the response from some on the right was only natural.


As for the Dixie Chicks, they picked up new fans despite losing old ones simply for attacking Bush. Funny to see people who were not even into country music start buying Chicks music and going to their concerts.
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Old 07-24-2012, 06:11 PM   #578
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Not really primarily about Obama, but an interesting overview of a notorious, if not actually well understood, local political culture:

Slate, July 23
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If I hear one more person accuse the Obama campaign of practicing “Chicago-style politics,” I'm gonna kick all his nephews off the park-district payroll. I’m gonna send some precinct captains over to straighten him out. Mitt Romney and his surrogates don’t understand what Chicago-style politics means. No one seems to have told them that it’s been gone for 25 years. And they don’t get that Barack Obama, in his Chicago days, never had anything to do with it.

Chicago-style politics, in common parlance, refers to the 1950s-1970s era of the Richard J. Daley machine. If you want to read a great, short book about that world, I recommend "Boss" by Mike Royko. The strength and durability of the Daley machine was its ethnically based patronage network, a complex system of obligations, benefits, and loyalties that didn’t depend on televised communication with a broader public. It was a noncompetitive system that in its heyday had a lock on urban power and the spoils that went with it. One of the most memorable phrases from that era comes from a story often told by former White House Counsel Abner J. Mikva, who described attempting to volunteer on a local campaign in the late 1940s: “Who sent you?” asked the cigar-chomping 8th Ward precinct captain. “Nobody sent me,” replied Mikva. “We don’t want nobody nobody sent.” The machine was dominated by the Irish and centered in Bridgeport, the rough-and-tumble neighborhood that was the ancestral home of the Daleys. Bridgeport’s antithesis has always been the liberal, multicultural enclave of Hyde Park, the University of Chicago neighborhood where the Obamas—and Bill Ayers—live. (The other thing the precinct captain told Mikva was, “We don’t want nobody from the University of Chicago in this organization.”) Hyde Park’s 5th Ward was the only one out of 50 to elect an independent alderman until the late 1960s, when political reformers like my parents and their friends on the North Side began to challenge the Daley machine.

By the mid-1980s, the independents had mostly finished off the Daley machine—thanks mainly to the Shakman decree, still very much in force, which prevents any political consideration in hiring, firing, and promotion, with the exception of a thin layer of policy positions. This meant that when Harold Washington, a black machine politician turned reformer, was elected in 1983, he controlled only a few hundred city and county jobs, instead of the 35,000 Daley had at his disposal. By the time the younger Richard M. Daley was elected mayor in 1989, the Chicago machine was, like the Italian Mafia, more legend than force. Chicago-style pizza still exists. Chicago-style politics, equally deplorable in my view, no longer does.

In 2008, John McCain ran ads describing Obama as “born of the corrupt Chicago political machine.” But Obama, who moved to Chicago in 1985 to be a community organizer in a politically disenfranchised neighborhood on the South Side, had no link to the Chicago machine at all. In "Dreams From My Father," he describes trying unsuccessfully to get the attention of city officials—in the Harold Washington era—to deal with asbestos in public housing projects. That’s how far outside of Chicago-style politics Obama was. Obama never ran for a Chicago office. Hyde Park elected him to represent it in the Illinois State Senate in 1996. He tried for Congress in 2000 and lost. Then he got elected to the US Senate in 2004. He somehow passed through Chicago politics without ever developing any real connection to it.

As for Obama’s Chicago-based hit men, well, they don’t come out of Chicago-style politics either. David Axelrod was a quintessential Hyde Park independent, a University of Chicago student and disciple of the reform guru Don Rose. Axelrod cut his teeth denouncing what was left of Chicago-style politics as a Chicago Tribune political reporter in the early 1980s before quitting journalism to help elect the notoriously honorable downstate politician Paul Simon to the Senate in 1984. That was the first campaign Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel worked on as well. Rahm was too young to have much to do with the Daley machine. As for the others, David Plouffe is from Delaware. Jim Messina is from Montana. They are in Chicago, but not of it.

Some Republicans seem to think Chicago politics is about brutal, slashing attacks on opponents—Al Capone with an ad budget. That’s what John Boehner was complaining about when he used the phrase in 2009 to describe the way the Obama administration was demonizing opponents of his health care bill, like the US Chamber of Commerce. But political aggression is hardly a distinctive Chicago trait. While American politics has never wanted for harsh negativity, the Chicago machine era predates media campaigns driven by sound bites and attack ads. The best modern exemplar of hardball politics is probably the late South Carolina political consultant Lee Atwater, who ran George H.W. Bush’s ugly 1988 presidential campaign.

If they aren’t referring to machine politics, maybe Mitt’s boys are trying to say something else? In a recent call with reporters, Romney adviser Ed Gillespie described Chicago politics as simple cronyism, with contracts and rewards going to Obama’s largest fundraisers. But Chicago-style politics was never much about big donors either. The machine was funded through involuntary contributions. City workers had to kick back a portion of their salaries to fund the political operation. For an example of a politician notorious for rewarding major campaign contributors, look to Richard Nixon, the first president to put a price on ambassadorships ($250,000), and his relationship with the likes of Walter Annenberg.

Of course, Romney isn’t interested in this kind of nuance. “Chicago-style politics” is mainly just a way for him to call Obama corrupt without coming out and saying so. Speaking for the campaign, former White House Chief of Staff John Sununu told Fox News, “This is a president who wallowed in Chicago—in the murky soup of politics slash felons.” Sununu, of course, swims in the clear broth of integrity slash ethics. But here too, the Romney line seems a little out of date. While Chicago aldermen have kept up their love affair with petty crime, Illinois state politics has become much sleazier, with half of the last eight governors moving from the state house to the big house. For a politician like Rod Blagojevich, it’s Springfield—away from the scrutiny of the Chicago media—that affords the real opportunity for corruption. Somehow, “Illinois-style politics” doesn’t have quite the same ring.
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Old 07-25-2012, 05:58 PM   #579
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Proud of yourself Michelle?

yahoo.com

Huma Abedin's week got a bit scarier on Sunday when federal officials ordered extra security to her house after a New Jersey man threatened her.

The New York Post is reporting a Muslim man from New Jersey threatened Abedin after Michelle Bachman accused her of having ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. The man was questioned by the NYPD but charges haven't been filed.
I wasn't threatening her, I was just looking for the answers she won't give to Michelle.
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Old 07-27-2012, 02:19 AM   #580
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I'm an independent and just can't find a reason to vote for Obama. In all honesty I don't think he accomplished anything significant. He blames the economy on Bush yet he had control of the house for the first two yrs of his presidency. He has nothing to run on like his hope & change campaign. He has been campaigning for the last three years instead of fixing the economy. He still hasn't fixed freddie and fannie. His only accomplishment is gay marriage and health care which nobody wants. He's a disappointment. I'm not a fan of Romney but anybody would be better than Obama. He's a wreck. Everything he says is a lie. He is ruining this country.
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