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Old 06-08-2012, 07:05 AM   #381
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Folks, I have evidence that Mitt Romney and INDY are in fact current members of a group that calls themselves G.O.D. Group. It stand for Good Ole Days. It's a secretive ultra right wing party that have a plan to take over the world and keep us permanantly stuck in the 1950s, back when life was good.

I have all the evidence in my book coming out July 3rd for $19.50.

Act now and you'll get a complimentary DVD explaing how Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh are of the same blood line and how this plan has actually been put in place decades ago by Fred C Koch.
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:00 PM   #382
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^Brilliant! It's about time somebody on the "left" got in the game!
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:34 PM   #383
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It's about time that the real vetting has begun.
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Old 06-08-2012, 01:26 PM   #384
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What evidence is there that Obama is right-leaning? Genuine question.
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:09 PM   #385
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Keep repeating; he's a pragmatic centrist... he's a pragmatic centrist... he's a pragmatic centrist...
let's pretend this revelation means anything for a moment. so because of something he did years ago, this means he's forever branded as an ultra-left winger? give me a break. people change their views all the time, either as they get older or as a way to get more votes. what about mitt's flip-flopping over the years? oh wait let me guess, that was a change of heart, yet obama will always be a radical lefty?
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:11 PM   #386
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In response to FG:

His catering to big business, mostly. The rich have been allowed to keep their ridiculous, deficit-increasing tax cuts and the people responsible for the corporate fraud that got us in deep shit have emerged largely unscathed.

He has also had a relatively aggressive foreign policy that certainly is not reflective of the "far left." And he has been much tougher on immigration than most recent presidents. He also supports capital punishment.

I think the true question is, what makes him left-leaning? He does not oppose Roe v. Wade. He supports gay rights. And I guess his health care plan is somewhat left-leaning in the context of this country, but I would call it moderate at best. What else is there?
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:45 PM   #387
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What evidence is there that Obama is right-leaning? Genuine question.
he won't legalize (or decriminalize) pot

his healthcare plan is a boon for insurance companies, healthcare should be a right, not a profit line for large corporations

he will not use his position to get college costs to something that is fair and affordable for students
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Old 06-08-2012, 04:05 PM   #388
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In response to FG:

His catering to big business, mostly. The rich have been allowed to keep their ridiculous, deficit-increasing tax cuts and the people responsible for the corporate fraud that got us in deep shit have emerged largely unscathed.
Well, this is why I keep saying he is Wall Street's man in the White House, but supporting the status quo of the taxpayer funded oligopoly of huge banks is pro-graft, not pro-free enterprise. In other words, if we are being cynical, it's payback for his backers.

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He has also had a relatively aggressive foreign policy that certainly is not reflective of the "far left."
I always have a gripe with the idea that left wing is associated with non-interventionism in foreign policy and hawkishness conversely is somehow indicative of right wingery - Clinton and Blair were the biggest interventionists ever; Bush II was elected on a remit of returning to traditional conservative non-interventionism, before 9/11 changed things; Nixon is blamed for Vietnam even though JFK/LBJ were at least as culpable.

Historically, certainly, conservatives in the US were much more associated with isolationism.

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And he has been much tougher on immigration than most recent presidents.
I would grant you this one.
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Old 06-08-2012, 04:10 PM   #389
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he won't legalize (or decriminalize) pot
I wouldn't much too much on that. I have the distinct impression Stalinists were also anti-drugs.

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his healthcare plan is a boon for insurance companies, healthcare should be a right, not a profit line for large corporations
Don't know much about the issue, but again, arguably, he is thinking of potential backers which has nothing to do with ideology but comes back to graft.

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he will not use his position to get college costs to something that is fair and affordable for students
All relative, isn't it? One of the GOP candidates wants to abolish the Department of Education.
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:01 PM   #390
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Interventionist foreign policy is of the Left.
The true conservative or Right position is more isolationist (like Ron Paul).
In fact, aren't neo-conservatives just classic liberals?

Anyhow...Republicans are married to the Military Industrial Complex.
So it has become a Right-wing 'thing' in America. To be fair, these aren't modern distinctions. Most Americans associate the Left-wing with pacifist loons. Obama is like every other recent President we've had not named Jimmy Carter since...maybe even Hoover. Ironically, Carter's was technically a more conservative position than W Bush. But we all know the spirit of what calling Obama a Leftie is...it's really all about income redistribution.
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:10 PM   #391
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Don't know much about the issue, but again, arguably, he is thinking of potential backers which has nothing to do with ideology but comes back to graft.
It's just a Big Business concession. That's how Washington works.
I think PF's answer really hits on some strong points.
But this is what all those Obamaniacs have spent 4 years figuring out.
"Change" w/r/t that corporatocracy was and is impossible.

The specific issue:
The mandate (mandating more business for HC insurance companies) was originally an idea started by conservative think tanks, promoted by Newt Gingrich and employed by Mitt Romney in Massachusetts.

What it is more than anything else is an AUTHORITARIAN position.
Could be Right/Left ideally, but in this context (catering to Big Business) seems to be more on the Right side of things.

A lot of semantics here, probably. I just think the idea that Obama is the caricature of 'Left' (as understood in America) is flatly absurd.
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:23 PM   #392
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It's just a Big Business concession. That's how Washington works.
I think PF's answer really hits on some strong points.
But this is what all those Obamaniacs have spent 4 years figuring out.
"Change" w/r/t that corporatocracy was and is impossible.

The specific issue:
The mandate (mandating more business for HC insurance companies) was originally an idea started by conservative think tanks, promoted by Newt Gingrich and employed by Mitt Romney in Massachusetts.

What it is more than anything else is an AUTHORITARIAN position.
Could be Right/Left ideally, but in this context (catering to Big Business) seems to be more on the Right side of things.

A lot of semantics here, probably. I just think the idea that Obama is the caricature of 'Left' (as understood in America) is flatly absurd.
Corpotocracy or as I prefer to call it oligarchy...yes..and it's interesting that the first genuine groundroots movement in decades to react against this, the Tea Partiers, were instantly hi-jacked by the corporatists in such an expert manner that today, they, are viewed as right wing "Little America" bigots by the bien-pensant liberals on this very forum, and elsewhere.
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:26 PM   #393
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Anyhow...Republicans are married to the Military Industrial Complex.
So it has become a Right-wing 'thing' in America. To be fair, these aren't modern distinctions. Most Americans associate the Left-wing with pacifist loons.
Exactly. Somehow over the years if you were hawkish and supported interventions you became seen as right-wing, if you opposed them you were seen as left-wing. Even though, as stated, one's political affiliation had nothing to do with whether or not they got us involved in conflict. Which is why it's so funny that the Democrats have always been seen as weak on national security-they've done more than their fair share in modern history of proving that to be untrue.

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But we all know the spirit of what calling Obama a Leftie is...it's really all about income redistribution.
Bingo.
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:35 PM   #394
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Both parties are married to the Milit-Ind complex - that's been the case for decades. Hilary Clinton is the biggest hawk, same with Biden at least on Israel - and those two are his most senior officials.
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:42 PM   #395
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Which is why it's so funny that the Democrats have always been seen as weak on national security-they've done more than their fair share in modern history of proving that to be untrue.
Well, ok, but that cuts both ways - Republicans are always blamed for being war mongers, at those times when the great American public, in its wisdom, decides that it wishes to retreat from foreign ventures and make peace.

Bush, lets face it, would have been toast if he didn't react to 9/11, or if he only reacted purely in a criminal justice manner. On September 12 2011, if you took a poll of attitudes of the public, it was like, lets nuke 'em. Nuke the Middle East and see what happens. In hindsight, his reaction could be seen almost, dare I say it, as relatively restrained, from some quarters. Bearing in mind Clinton was the president who ordered bombing raids to detract attention from a soiled dress. But I digress...
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:56 PM   #396
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and it's interesting that the first genuine groundroots movement in decades to react against this, the Tea Partiers,
Don't be fooled, this was not a genuine grassroots movement. Although poorly managed so it may look grassroots at the beginning, it was organized by big names like Beck, Americans for Prosperity, etc and bankrolled very early on.
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:03 PM   #397
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Don't be fooled, this was not a genuine grassroots movement. Although poorly managed so it may look grassroots at the beginning, it was organized by big names like Beck, Americans for Prosperity, etc and bankrolled very early on.
"Bankrolled very early on" - very possibly and indeed probably, but does that not suggest entryism?

Entryism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:16 PM   #398
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Well, ok, but that cuts both ways - Republicans are always blamed for being war mongers, at those times when the great American public, in its wisdom, decides that it wishes to retreat from foreign ventures and make peace.
Oh, absolutely. Both parties have been inaccurately portrayed on issues of war over the years, no question.

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Bush, lets face it, would have been toast if he didn't react to 9/11, or if he only reacted purely in a criminal justice manner. On September 12 2011, if you took a poll of attitudes of the public, it was like, lets nuke 'em. Nuke the Middle East and see what happens. In hindsight, his reaction could be seen almost, dare I say it, as relatively restrained, from some quarters. Bearing in mind Clinton was the president who ordered bombing raids to detract attention from a soiled dress. But I digress...
Very true. And I am thankful that he ignored the "let's nuke everyone!" crowd, aka, the batshit insane.
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:39 PM   #399
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"Bankrolled very early on" - very possibly and indeed probably, but does that not suggest entryism?

Entryism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It's sort of playing semantics, though. The Tea Party as we know it and almost all members know it would not exist without the Koch's.
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:46 AM   #400
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Both parties are married to the Milit-Ind complex - that's been the case for decades. Hilary Clinton is the biggest hawk, same with Biden at least on Israel - and those two are his most senior officials.
The Republicans are married to it and the Democrats like to jerk it off.
Or something like that.

The Republicans earn the backing of that entire industry because they are the ones that most often delegate that money in legislation. And they also play the political patriotism game quite well. Democrats almost never beef up the military budget. But when it comes to getting into fights around the world, both parties are more than good at it. But let's face it, we are often asked to be the 'world police' and often criticized when we don't intervene.

And yeah, there are a lot of hawks in the Democratic Party. Obama could be called one as well. They are just called doves when the Republicans are trying to beat them in an election.
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