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Old 01-27-2012, 08:43 PM   #781
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post

Tax cuts are code for racism ("It's not 'spic' or 'nigger' anymore. (Instead,) they say, 'Let's cut taxes." -- Charles Rangel 1994.
That one is ridiculous, I have to admit. How he jumped from tax cuts to racism is beyond me.

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I could go on. The problem is liberals believe conservatives only win, not based on the strength of their arguments or accomplishments, but on code-words and dog-whistles.
Conservatives, however routinely make it clear that liberals win exclusively on the strengths of their arguments or accomplishments. If only we depraved liberals were as respectful of our opponents as the noble conservatives are. . . .

Come on, INDY.
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Old 01-28-2012, 12:13 AM   #782
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Reforming Medicare is code for "throw granny off the cliff."

I could go on. The problem is liberals believe conservatives only win, not based on the strength of their arguments or accomplishments, but on code-words and dog-whistles.
And when Obama's healthcare plan came about, conservatives mentioned that meant Obama wanted to kill your grandmother with death panels .

Please, don't even begin to pretend your side doesn't do this very same thing.
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Old 01-28-2012, 12:36 AM   #783
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I believe conservatives pander to their lowest common denominator's base fears, and it works wonderfully
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Old 01-28-2012, 10:23 AM   #784
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It does seem to work

They're just going to have a tougher time with terrorism, since the OBL and Khadafi stuff. Remember, Obama was supposed to be soft on all that stuff. Where there's a will there's a way I guess, just make shit up. Now the economy has obviously overtaken terrorism as the number one issue.
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Old 01-28-2012, 10:59 AM   #785
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
2011 GDP: 1.7%
The effects of the housing bubble and collapse (thank you Bush, Bernanke, Greenspan) are still weighing heavily on the economy.

Without passing the the payroll tax cut (thank you Obama), that growth you cite would have been even smaller.

But let's not let facts get in the way.
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Old 01-28-2012, 06:24 PM   #786
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Seconded. What Indy500 said.
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Old 01-29-2012, 04:23 PM   #787
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The effects of the housing bubble and collapse (thank you Bush, Bernanke, Greenspan) are still weighing heavily on the economy. But let's not let facts get in the way.
Speaking of facts; let's throw in that both Houses of Congress were under Democratic control at the time of the crisis (thank you Frank, Pelosi, Dodd and Reid)
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Without passing the payroll tax cut (thank you Obama), that growth you cite would have been even smaller.
The GOP House passed a 1 year extension, the Senate and president wanted the current 2 month extension. But glad you now recognize that tax cuts stimulate economic growth. (thank you Bush tax cuts)
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Old 01-29-2012, 04:37 PM   #788
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But glad you now recognize that tax cuts stimulate economic growth. (thank you Bush tax cuts)
Those really worked out for us.
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Old 01-29-2012, 05:17 PM   #789
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Speaking of facts; let's throw in that both Houses of Congress were under Democratic control at the time of the crisis (thank you Frank, Pelosi, Dodd and Reid)
Yep, we all know that economic crises happen in the moment.

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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
The GOP House passed a 1 year extension, the Senate and president wanted the current 2 month extension. But glad you now recognize that tax cuts stimulate economic growth. (thank you Bush tax cuts)
We also know that tax cuts are long term stimulus.
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:20 PM   #790
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The GOP House passed a 1 year extension, the Senate and president wanted the current 2 month extension. But glad you now recognize that tax cuts stimulate economic growth. (thank you Bush tax cuts)
I thought that you were better than discussing things from a completely disingenuous platform. I was wrong.

The Republicans in the Senate were not interested in negotiating with the Democrats or the President in any meaningful way, and that is why the stopgap measure was necessary - you couldn't get a year-long deal with these people. It was hailed as a major victory for the administration by pretty much everyone, including Republicans with egg on their face.

Since they insist on treating every issue like it is Obama's Waterloo, you can't work with them at all. On this issue, Obama finally called their bluff.
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:56 PM   #791
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Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
Those really worked out for us.
Was going to say, not entirely sure how those worked out for my family, but, you know, whatever.

Let's not forget the matter of the Bush administration dragging us into two wars with little to no preparation or exit strategy whatsoever-that's certainly part of the reason we're in the mess we're in now.
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Old 01-29-2012, 07:04 PM   #792
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Originally Posted by mobvok View Post
Still President.
Yep.
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Old 01-29-2012, 08:26 PM   #793
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Those really worked out for us.
ooh, or those stimulus packages we got in 2007 or something? that $300 i got sure prevented me from losing my job!
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Old 01-30-2012, 06:18 AM   #794
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RNC Chair Priebus compares Obama to Captain Schettino

On Face the Nation this past Sunday, Republican National Committee chair Reince Priebus likens President Obama to the captain who abandoned the sinking Costa Concordia.

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The fight for the GOP nomination has become rough-and-tumble, with Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich throwing verbal jabs at each other on the campaign trail and debate stages. And when they aren't beating up each other, they are jabbing at President Obama, calling him a failure and a socialist.

It's part of the campaign circus - candidates and their surrogates slinging mud to sway voters. But Republican National Committee chair Reince Priebus took the bashing to a new level in comparing Mr. Obama to the captain of the capsized Costa Concordia cruise ship, in speaking with Bob Schieffer on "Face the Nation" Sunday.

"In the end, in a few months, this is all going to be ancient history and we're going to talk about our own little Captain Schettino, which is President Obama who is abandoning the ship here in the United States. He's more interested in campaigning than doing his job as President," Priebus said.

Democratic National Committee Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, who also appeared on "Face the Nation," couldn't top that line of attack. The best she could do was call Mitt Romney "out-of-step" and "extreme."

"Mitt Romney is so out of step with the priorities of Floridians, I mean I've stood in line behind senior citizens in my district who had to leave one or two of their prescriptions at the counter because of the donut hole in the prescription drug program," Wasserman Schultz told Schieffer. "Mitt Romney would repeal the Affordable Care Act - any of the Republicans would - and that would mean we would reopen the donut hole and seniors would have less affordable prescription drugs again."
RNC Chair Priebus compares Obama to Captain Schettino - Political Hotsheet - CBS News
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Old 01-30-2012, 07:49 AM   #795
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Originally Posted by HBK-79 View Post
RNC Chair Priebus compares Obama to Captain Schettino
I was watching that and I couldn't believe it, then I could. Cute little soundbite I guess. This is going to get very dirty.
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Old 01-30-2012, 08:30 AM   #796
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funny, i don't recall them bitching when bush did the same thing in 2004 (or any president serving his first term, to not make this a bush vs. obama thing). though the best thing they could've done was to just ignore his comment and not print it at all.
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:46 PM   #797
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But glad you now recognize that tax cuts stimulate economic growth. (thank you Bush tax cuts)
How about let's just use numbers and not partisan blather?
What you say is true...and also not a whole truth.

Numbers and percentages are Federal Revenues relative to GDP

1981, Reagan - 19%
*tax cuts*
1983, Reagan - 17% (low of revenue)
1987, Reagan - 18% (height of revenue)
*growing deficit at the height of growth and federal revenue*
*revenues flatline at 17% until 1995*

2001, Bush 20% -
*tax cuts*
*Tech bubble bursts*
*9/11*
2003, Bush 16% -
more *tax cuts*
2004, Bush 16% (low of revenue)
2007, Bush 18% (height of revenue)
*growing deficit at the height of growth and federal revenue*

Both cases, twenty years apart, demonstrate the exact same thing.
Supply side economics does two things.
A) Creates revenue shortages, followed by revenue growth.
B) Leads to growing deficits because the cost of desired Govt is too high.

FTR, this is why Republicans (as Romney does) use 18% as the ideal number.
Currently it is at 15%, projected to get to 18% by '13 and 19% by '15.

From 1997-1999, the budget was balanced, and the number was 19%.
With entitlement costs rising, and defense costs going nowhere (don't allow yourself to be fooled by false 'cuts') then that number - objectively and demonstrably needs to be at least 19%, if not 20% heading into the future.

And this is why Republicans, both out of office or choosing not to run again, on at least three different commissions, have all said the same thing. Cuts and revenue increases.

Supply-side economics works if you can reduce the cost of Government...but you can't. Not even Bush with his Republican Congress from '01 to '07 managed to do it. Why? Because they want to stay in office (another term limit argument of mine! )

Reagan and W Bush both had growing deficits precisely because the stark reality is that they can't generate enough revenues using supply-side for the Govt that the people desire. And they all know this. But that doesn't stop them from using it as a tool to continue to convince people to vote against their best interests.

I'd be all for supply-side if it made mathematical sense.
I do believe we should keep taxes as low as possible...I think Clinton had it about right. Which is why he is easily the most fiscally conservative President of recent memory. Imagine that.

Numbers taken from here:
http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/r...50_2015USp_F0f
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Old 01-31-2012, 05:05 PM   #798
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Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post
How about let's just use numbers and not partisan blather?
What you say is true...and also not a whole truth.

Numbers and percentages are Federal Revenues relative to GDP

1981, Reagan - 19%
*tax cuts*
1983, Reagan - 17% (low of revenue)
1987, Reagan - 18% (height of revenue)
*growing deficit at the height of growth and federal revenue*
*revenues flatline at 17% until 1995*

2001, Bush 20% -
*tax cuts*
*Tech bubble bursts*
*9/11*
2003, Bush 16% -
more *tax cuts*
2004, Bush 16% (low of revenue)
2007, Bush 18% (height of revenue)
*growing deficit at the height of growth and federal revenue*

Both cases, twenty years apart, demonstrate the exact same thing.
Supply side economics does two things.
A) Creates revenue shortages, followed by revenue growth.
B) Leads to growing deficits because the cost of desired Govt is too high.
I think we agree then on most of this. The number you aren't using is total GDP and total revenues. If the goal is to grow the economy and produce jobs then we need to see those to judge if tax cuts worked or not. (They did in the 80's)
Quote:
FTR, this is why Republicans (as Romney does) use 18% as the ideal number.
Currently it is at 15%, projected to get to 18% by '13 and 19% by '15.
Those numbers must be based on some optimistic numbers concerning our recovery.

Quote:
Supply-side economics works if you can reduce the cost of Government...but you can't. Not even Bush with his Republican Congress from '01 to '07 managed to do it. Why? Because they want to stay in office (another term limit argument of mine! )

Reagan and W Bush both had growing deficits precisely because the stark reality is that they can't generate enough revenues using supply-side for the Govt that the people desire. And they all know this. But that doesn't stop them from using it as a tool to continue to convince people to vote against their best interests.
Well you'll get no argument from me that you can't cut taxes AND grow the government. Reagan had a Dem controlled House all 8 years and Senate part of his term to deal with. Bush... no excuse.
Quote:
I'd be all for supply-side if it made mathematical sense.
I do believe we should keep taxes as low as possible...I think Clinton had it about right. Which is why he is easily the most fiscally conservative President of recent memory. Imagine that.
Two points here. Do you believe in the Laffer Curve. The key is finding the optimal rate, high enough to raise needed revenues but not high enough to retard growth (and revenues). Second, there is the moral component. Some of us think that a flat tax is the fairest thing (adjusted for Soc sec and Medicare taxes), other believe a progressive code is "fairer." And some of us believe there is a limit to what the government should ever ask of a citizen in taxes. But, that's not objective that's subjective and philosophical.
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:37 PM   #799
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IThe number you aren't using is total GDP and total revenues. If the goal is to grow the economy and produce jobs then we need to see those to judge if tax cuts worked or not. (They did in the 80's)
Those numbers are federal revenues because I was talking about tax cuts from Congress, enacted by the signatures of Presidents. I was talking about tax policy and regarding its effectiveness in balancing the federal budget.

State revenues or State GDP are irrelevant because they have nothing to do with China owning so much of our growing federal debt.

With regarding job creation, that might be a different conversation.

Quote:
Well you'll get no argument from me that you can't cut taxes AND grow the government. Reagan had a Dem controlled House all 8 years and Senate part of his term to deal with. Bush... no excuse.
And since no Republicans, not even the current crop, are willing to cut the amount of Govt required to balance the budget, we - not only - have to look at ways to increase revenue, we have to admit that supply-side can't work within this paradigm. Because it hasn't.

Quote:
Two points here. Do you believe in the Laffer Curve. The key is finding the optimal rate, high enough to raise needed revenues but not high enough to retard growth (and revenues). Second, there is the moral component. Some of us think that a flat tax is the fairest thing (adjusted for Soc sec and Medicare taxes), other believe a progressive code is "fairer." And some of us believe there is a limit to what the government should ever ask of a citizen in taxes. But, that's not objective that's subjective and philosophical.
We need only look at the data to get a general idea where that optimal rate should reside. I believe that the moral component is very real and I agree that in a perfect world, a flat-tax is the fairest thing. But I also acknowledge the idea that we don't live in that fantasy and that a (more simplified) progressive code is where we should be. I also agree that there is absolutely a limit to what the Govt should ask of citizens in taxes...but if we are asking for a fancy car, rather than one from the junkyard, we should also acknowledge that we have to pay for it.

Even the vast majority of conservatives love both Social Security, Medicare and a strong national defense. They just need to realize that, quite demonstrably, Reaganomics has failed to properly pay for it.

Philosophically, I'm sure we aren't that far apart (as an ideal fairness).
But at some point philosophy is superseded by the reality on the ground.
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:23 PM   #800
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in more good news, the Afghanistan War will be ending soon.
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