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Old 01-06-2012, 12:28 AM   #681
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I'm still curious how a true liberal could have possibly wanted to sign the sort of stuff Obama did recently in regards to holding people indefinitely without trials, or renewing parts of the Patriot Act.
a lot of people in here ( and elsewhere) seem to be baffled by this

Obama signing the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012


I don't get that at all.

what was he supposed to do? veto it?
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:37 AM   #682
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Obama is center-right on just about everything cept those pesky gays and some social economics "fairness" hollow statements that the insurance and banking lobbies have assured stay only notions.

Agree / disagree, Indy?

You and I both know Alternate Universe President McCain would have bailed out the bankers as well. The establishment wouldn't have had it any other way.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:51 AM   #683
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it is not about being right or left

the Senate passed that bill 99-1,
a veto only needs 67 votes to be over ridden

vetoing it only would have given the GOP a winning argument for the 2012 election
instead he signed it, with a signing statement, stating what parts he would not follow.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:59 AM   #684
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it is not about being right or left

the Senate passed that bill 99-1,
a veto only needs 67 votes to be over ridden

vetoing it only would have given the GOP a winning argument for the 2012 election
instead he signed it, with a signing statement, stating what parts he would not follow.
NDAA and the Patriot Act are very much Washington, D.C. and military industrial complex things rather than Democrat / Republican things.
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Old 01-06-2012, 09:13 AM   #685
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The US centre-line is to the right of almost every other similar nation. Obama is definitely centre-right almost anywhere else.
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Old 01-06-2012, 09:24 AM   #686
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The US centre-line is to the right of almost every other similar nation. Obama is definitely centre-right almost anywhere else.
Maybe I have my radar calibrated to pre 9-11 hysteria security culture, then.

Obama is centre-right for American politics, for me.
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Old 01-06-2012, 09:55 AM   #687
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For overall American politics, maybe, but for a president? I can't imagine a US president getting that much further left, but a lot further right, meaning, the centre line is further to the right, as the minute you drop a toe into something that is even just mildly left elsewhere - Hows about some healthcare? And I don't mind the gays that much? - you're an uber-liberal president in the US. What are the main reasons why someone like Indy can with any kind of straight face claim Obama as some uber-liberal?

I know a lot of that comes down to the strong US debate about the size and role of the government, but even then, it all flips around based on the topic. You've got conservatives complaining about the existence of the Dept. of Education, but happy to hand over ridiculous powers - real 'tyrannical' government power - to various agencies in the name of national isolated uneducated sheltered paranoia security.
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:00 AM   #688
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I know the statist utopians here will not agree but President Obama is, by far, the most liberal president to reside in the White House. And he's in big trouble when even the New York Times' token "conservative" is on to him.

i really don't know what to think anymore.

my leftist friends talk about how Obama is to the right of Ronald Reagan on so many things, like the power of executive branch as well as taxation when we have our meetings over yerba matte down at the Marx Cafe. heck, Reagan raised taxes many times while in office.

then i hear people like you who think he's part of a larger Bolshevik plot and i just get really confused.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:07 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers View Post
The US centre-line is to the right of almost every other similar nation. Obama is definitely centre-right almost anywhere else.
bingo. i'd never vote for him if he ran in the new zealand system because he'd probably represent several of the parties i consider myself diametrically opposed to.

meanwhile our current way too right ruling party would be raging lefties in the us.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:15 PM   #690
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then i hear people like you who think he's part of a larger Bolshevik plot and i just get really confused.
Well, apparently there are also people in America - maybe Indy is among them, I'm not sure - who think that the billionaire capitalist speculator/hedge fund owner George Soros is a Marxist-Leninist because he has donated to the Democrats.

Obama, I think, did have quite a left wing voting record in Congress. As President it seems to me he has adopted largely centre right positions.
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Old 01-06-2012, 02:35 PM   #691
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it still amazes me the fantasies the right has about Obama. as if there isn't an actual record there to scrutinize. i suppose this is the double-edged sword -- as expertly as Obama allowed his supporters to project their "black messiah" liberal fantasies upon him in 2008, so too can the angry right concoct any number of detached-from-reality conspiracy theories about him.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:00 PM   #692
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it still amazes me the fantasies the right has about Obama. as if there isn't an actual record there to scrutinize. i suppose this is the double-edged sword -- as expertly as Obama allowed his supporters to project their "black messiah" liberal fantasies upon him in 2008, so too can the angry right concoct any number of detached-from-reality conspiracy theories about him.
True but this to an extent epitomises the problem I've always had with Obama. He's a bit of a cypher. Where's the substance? Ok, getting Osama was a win but that was just a matter of giving the right instruction at the right time. Not rocket science.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:51 PM   #693
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True but this to an extent epitomises the problem I've always had with Obama. He's a bit of a cypher. Where's the substance? Ok, getting Osama was a win but that was just a matter of giving the right instruction at the right time. Not rocket science.


health care?
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Old 01-06-2012, 06:37 PM   #694
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Mercifully, liberalism has the advantage of time on its side. And those millions of illegals and their offspring that the GOP loves to hate.
So you're acknowledging that liberals are callously allowing the country to be flooded with foreign nationals for the express purpose of securing a voting majority in the future?

Or am I misstating the views of Democrats as wildly and inaccurately as you just did of Republicans?
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Old 01-06-2012, 07:09 PM   #695
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i really don't know what to think anymore.

my leftist friends talk about how Obama is to the right of Ronald Reagan on so many things, like the power of executive branch as well as taxation when we have our meetings over yerba matte down at the Marx Cafe. heck, Reagan raised taxes many times while in office.

then i hear people like you who think he's part of a larger Bolshevik plot and i just get really confused.
Well, you miss the gist of what Brooks is saying.

Quote:
“He’s certainly more liberal than I thought he was. And he’s more liberal than he thinks he is. He thinks he is just slightly center-left. But when you got down to his instincts, they're pretty left. And his problem is he can't really act on them because it would be political disaster. And so that means, I think he is doing very little — proposing very little.”
His instincts are those of a far-left ideologue but he's brought towards the center by political reality. Hence the disappointment of fellow ideologues. For proof of where his heart lies you can look to his Senate voting record; his appointments to the Supreme Court, Attorney General, czars, the EPA and the NLRB; his record spending; what he campaigned on (single-payer healthcare, Cap & Trade, closing Gitmo. etc) and his rhetoric. Find me another president in history ever saying anything like:
"We’re not, we’re not trying to push financial reform because we begrudge success that’s fairly earned. I mean, I do think at a certain point you’ve made enough money."

Don't try, you can't.

On foreign policy he has had enough success and keep our cities safe from terrorism so I'll call that a wash but who doubts that his policies on same-sex marriage, Palestinian statehood and many others won't change once reelection isn't a concern.
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Old 01-06-2012, 07:16 PM   #696
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If his "instincts" without a re-election to worry about are that concerning, I imagine he won't get the campaign dollars from big business, right?
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Old 01-06-2012, 07:48 PM   #697
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Find me another president in history ever saying anything like:
"We’re not, we’re not trying to push financial reform because we begrudge success that’s fairly earned. I mean, I do think at a certain point you’ve made enough money."

Don't try, you can't.
All American presidents since 1945, and plenty before, have made quotes more left wing than that.

Let us know what year you want to start.
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Old 01-06-2012, 09:38 PM   #698
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So you're acknowledging that liberals are callously allowing the country to be flooded with foreign nationals for the express purpose of securing a voting majority in the future?

Or am I misstating the views of Democrats as wildly and inaccurately as you just did of Republicans?
i want to call this a wanker comment, but it'll get me in trouble so i won't.
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:27 PM   #699
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All American presidents since 1945, and plenty before, have made quotes more left wing than that.

Let us know what year you want to start.
Après vous
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:30 PM   #700
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i want to call this a wanker comment, but it'll get me in trouble so i won't.
And the wankerness (?) of "those millions of illegals and their offspring that the GOP loves to hate"?
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