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Old 09-29-2009, 11:21 AM   #801
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Regarding the Beck thing, that was a dumb statement and he shouldn't have said, and as far as I know, he said it once. Do you even watch his show? It is nothing but attacking Obama based on policies.
Wrong on both parts. He said it more than once and the majority of his attacks on radio are not about policy.
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Old 09-29-2009, 11:30 AM   #802
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Fantastic column on race I read the other day.
How do you consider this a "fantastic column on race", it had almost nothing to do with race. It said nothing new. It's the same old conservative argument, "see they're race baiting".

When will one of you be brave enough to honestly discuss race?

You said you were ready, but then you still bring this shit to the table?!
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:36 PM   #803
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When will one of you be brave enough to honestly discuss race?
Good Lord, BVS, what the hell do you want to "discuss?" What is it that you see and know that you insist I'm denying? I struggle to see the point in having a discussion with someone who is going to assume that objection to Obama is more likely than not subconsciously rooted in xenophobia, and someone who holds a "kill Obama" sign is a racist conservative while someone who holds a "kill Bush" sign is just an extremist nut and should not be taken seriously and, most likely, is probably just a plant by the right.

So come on. Let's discuss. What do you want?
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:22 PM   #804
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I struggle to see the point in having a discussion with someone who is going to assume that objection to Obama is more likely than not subconsciously rooted in xenophobia, and someone who holds a "kill Obama" sign is a racist conservative while someone who holds a "kill Bush" sign is just an extremist nut and should not be taken seriously and, most likely, is probably just a plant by the right.
Well, I can tell any real discussion is going to be difficult since you insist on not listening to me and keep distoring my view.

First of all stop equating 'objection' to 'protestors' I think Carter, Irvine, myself and most others KNOW the difference between the educated conservative that can argue based solely on policy from those at a rally. In fact if we would just eliminate the tea parties from the equation this would more than likely not even be a topic of discussion.

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So come on. Let's discuss. What do you want?
Let's discuss why is it when Obama was running not even the canidate did we hear from you, Rush, and others that Obama will only win because "he's a good looking black man"? You were absolutely the first people to play any race card. Why? Yet you accused everyone else of playing it.

Why if it's about spending and czars is "communism", "birth certificate", "Africa" showing up all over the place? Why are rants about 'not being able to send back illegal aliens' being spouted out by elected officials at a rally that's suppose to be about "spending"? Why are ELECTED REPUBLICAN OFFICIALS being caught sending racist emails out about Obama? Why is the "christian right" not standing up and condemning Rush's racism?

This has all become acceptable to you, why is that?

Don't even answer the issue about why Bush's spending or Reagan's czars were never an issue, we know that answer.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:29 PM   #805
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Let's discuss why is it when Obama was running not even the canidate did we hear from you, Rush, and others that Obama will only win because "he's a good looking black man"? You were absolutely the first people to play any race card. Why? Yet you accused everyone else of playing it.


this is a good point.

it's amazing how Obama (and Michelle) is too cerebral and effete and intellectual, and yet at the same time he's clearly an affirmative action baby and only got to where he is because white people felt guilty.

i also don't see how anyone "plays the race card." race is a fact of life, and simply acknowledging that race exists and does play a role in people's lives seems to me to be reality.
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Old 09-29-2009, 04:52 PM   #806
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First of all stop equating 'objection' to 'protestors' I think Carter, Irvine, myself and most others KNOW the difference between the educated conservative that can argue based solely on policy from those at a rally. In fact if we would just eliminate the tea parties from the equation this would more than likely not even be a topic of discussion.
What is your problem with the protesters? I think I've yet to understand it. Do you think they're all motivated by race and are just a bunch of ignorant rednecks?

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Let's discuss why is it when Obama was running not even the canidate did we hear from you, Rush, and others that Obama will only win because "he's a good looking black man"? You were absolutely the first people to play any race card. Why? Yet you accused everyone else of playing it.
Let me have Irvine answer that.

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i also don't see how anyone "plays the race card." race is a fact of life, and simply acknowledging that race exists and does play a role in people's lives seems to me to be reality.
The only such talk that I remember was the assumption that Obama would get a significant number of votes just because he's black or just because he's young and cool or just because he supposedly can give a good speech, or any other asinine reason. What is wrong with objecting to that? What is wrong with not being comfortable with the idea of people voting for him just because he's black?

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Why if it's about spending and czars is "communism", "birth certificate", "Africa" showing up all over the place?
I would probably debate your definition of "all over the place." Is talk about Africa really that widespread, or does the media just find its occurrences and run with them? Look at the leaders of the Republican party. Do you see Huckabee talking about Africa? No. Do you see Romney talking about Africa? No. Palin? Gingrich? Crist? Pawlenty? No. And I've heard on multiple occasions these very people denouncing the birthers. But why focus on that when we can make Orly Taitz the head of the GOP? I understand, it is difficult...


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Why are ELECTED REPUBLICAN OFFICIALS being caught sending racist emails out about Obama?
I don't know what you're referring to. If it is a racial remark, then shame on that person. But elected officials from both parties have made racial remarks before. What did candidate-Biden say about walking into a 7-11?

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Why is the "christian right" not standing up and condemning Rush's racism?
Perhaps because Rush isn't a racist.

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Don't even answer the issue about why Bush's spending or Reagan's czars were never an issue, we know that answer.
What?
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Old 09-29-2009, 05:18 PM   #807
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2861, why even get drawn into this 'debate' ?

I thought journalist Roger Simon...of all people...had a good thought on MSNBC last week.

Simon said that some Obama people believe that if the race issue "is worth stating, then it's worth overstating."

That's what is going on here.
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Old 09-29-2009, 05:19 PM   #808
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What is your problem with the protesters? I think I've yet to understand it. Do you think they're all motivated by race and are just a bunch of ignorant rednecks?
Keep in mind I've been to the Apr 15 and to the latest tea party, they are a bunch of angry people who can't explain what they are angry about, and yes the majority of them have race issues. They celebrate ignorance.


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Let me have Irvine answer that.
But you don't believe what Irvine said there, for you accuse people all the time


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Originally Posted by 2861U2 View Post
The only such talk that I remember was the assumption that Obama would get a significant number of votes just because he's black or just because he's young and cool or just because he supposedly can give a good speech, or any other asinine reason. What is wrong with objecting to that? What is wrong with not being comfortable with the idea of people voting for him just because he's black?
What's wrong with it, is that YOU were the one that made the assumption that he would win only because he was black. That was you! How do you not get this? YOU were the very first person in FYM to bring up race.


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I would probably debate your definition of "all over the place." Is talk about Africa really that widespread, or does the media just find its occurrences and run with them? Look at the leaders of the Republican party. Do you see Huckabee talking about Africa? No. Do you see Romney talking about Africa? No. Palin? Gingrich? Crist? Pawlenty? No. And I've heard on multiple occasions these very people denouncing the birthers. But why focus on that when we can make Orly Taitz the head of the GOP? I understand, it is difficult...
WILL YOU PLEASE START LISTENING TO ME!!! Otherwise this is just useless. I have stated that I am talking about the tea parties and not the Republican party in general.

I don't see Romney saying much of anything significant, or any of the leaders for that matter. If they were saying something significant the tea parties would be obsolete.


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Perhaps because Rush isn't a racist.
It saddens me that you think comissioning and playing a song like "Barack the Magic Negro" isn't racist, your party has a long way to go.


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What?
It's not difficult the party as a whole are hypocrites on this one. You didn't speak out on Bush's spending. And no one said anything about Reagan's czars.
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Old 09-29-2009, 05:23 PM   #809
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2861, why even get drawn into this 'debate' ?

I thought journalist Roger Simon...of all people...had a good thought on MSNBC last week.

Simon said that some Obama people believe that if the race issue "is worth stating, then it's worth overstating."

That's what is going on here.
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Old 09-29-2009, 05:34 PM   #810
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2861, see what I mean?
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Old 09-29-2009, 05:37 PM   #811
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So you're going to be honest and tell me race does not play an issue with the far right?

You're getting a little harder to take seriously as of recent.
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Old 09-29-2009, 07:26 PM   #812
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It's clear this angle of attack line of questioning isn't going anywhere, and it also seems pretty obvious that none of the participants here are about to change their mind on the subject, at least not via constant harassment and being told they're bringing "shit to the table."

Let's move on, shall we? Or at least find a less aggressive way to go about discussing things?
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Old 09-30-2009, 08:32 AM   #813
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BVS, if you honestly believe the majority of the tea-party protesters were racists, then I don't see much of a point. Because they're not. They're just not, and you'll never understand it for whatever reason, whether it's some sort of deep-seeded hatred for conservatism or your unyielding fascination with everything this president does... I don't know.
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Old 09-30-2009, 08:47 AM   #814
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BVS, if you honestly believe the majority of the tea-party protesters were racists, then I don't see much of a point. Because they're not. They're just not, and you'll never understand it for whatever reason, whether it's some sort of deep-seeded hatred for conservatism or your unyielding fascination with everything this president does... I don't know.
And I don't think you'll ever really recognize the more subtle sides of racism, i.e. Rush, your comment about the only reason Obama will win, and the majority of tea party protestors. I just don't think you'll ever be able to recognize it, hopefully someday you will.

I don't have any deep seeded hatred nor any fascination with anyone, it's just something I see and put up with everyday. Maybe growing up in the south I'm more fine tuned to see it, I don't know, but I see it here, I saw it when I lived in the Midwest and I see it in the tea party movement, and it's very disturbing to me.
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Old 09-30-2009, 12:12 PM   #815
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Here's a good conservative critique on Obama's Policy approach:

Obama and the Policy Approach > Publications > National Affairs

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Both his ambition and his unique style of issue management show that Obama is emphatically a "policy approach" president. For him, governing means not just addressing discrete challenges as they arise, but formulating comprehensive policies aimed at giving large social systems — and indeed society itself — more rational and coherent forms and functions. In this view, the long-term, systemic problems of health care, education, and the environment cannot be solved in small pieces. They must be taken on in whole, lest the unattended elements react against and undo the carefully orchestrated policy measures.
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Indeed, as Madison put it, "as long as the reason of man continues to be fallible, and he is at liberty to exercise it, different opinions will be formed." It may be that, in the end, the proponents of the policy approach disagree with Madison's premise that reason is fallible. But if that is their view, they can hardly claim much empirical evidence for it.

Though Madison believed the most common source of different opinions to be property, he also understood that Americans were likely as well to divide along religious and moral lines, reflecting convictions about ultimate questions of good and evil that cannot be resolved through scientific reason. This does not mean they take in only part of the picture, but that they disagree about what is best for the whole, for reasons that run deep. These disagreements, although they do not always lend themselves to scientific analysis and technical solution, speak to genuine human yearnings and concerns. They are often rooted in many centuries of experience and wisdom, and can hardly be dismissed as irrelevant to the life of a liberal society — let alone as illegitimate subjects for political debate.
It's a long read but worth it.
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Old 09-30-2009, 12:38 PM   #816
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Some on the Left say he is failing:

...just saying..

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Gore Vidal: ‘We’ll have a dictatorship soon in the US’The grand old man of letters Gore Vidal claims America is ‘rotting away’ — and don’t expect Barack Obama to save it

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A conversation with Gore Vidal unfolds at his pace. He answers questions imperiously, occasionally playfully, with a piercing, lethal dryness. He is 83 and in a wheelchair (a result of hypothermia suffered in the war, his left knee is made of titanium). But he can walk (“Of course I can”) and after a recent performance of Mother Courage at London’s National Theatre he stood to deliver an anti-war speech to the audience.

How was his friend Fiona Shaw in the title role? “Very good.” Where did they meet? Silence. The US? “Well, it wasn’t Russia.” What’s he writing at the moment? “It’s a little boring to talk about. Most writers seem to do little else but talk about themselves and their work, in majestic terms.” He means self-glorifying? “You’ve stumbled on the phrase,” he says, regally enough. “Continue to use it.”

Vidal is sitting in the Connaught Hotel in Mayfair, where he has been coming to stay for 60 years. He is wearing a brown suit jacket, brown jumper, tracksuit bottoms; his white hair twirled into a Tintin-esque quiff and with his hooded eyes, delicate yet craggy features and arch expression, he looks like Quentin Crisp, but accessorised with a low, lugubrious growl rather than camp lisp.

He points to an apartment opposite the hotel where Churchill stayed during the Second World War, as Downing Street was “getting hammered by the Nazis. The crowds would cheer him from the street, he knew great PR.” In a flash, this memory reminds you of the swathe of history Vidal has experienced with great intimacy: he was friends with JFK, fought in the war, his father Gene, an Olympic decathlete and aeronautics teacher, founded TWA among other airlines and had a relationship with Amelia Earhart. (Vidal first flew and landed a plane when he was 10.) He was a screenwriter for MGM in the dying days of the studio system, toyed with being a politician, he has written 24 novels and is hailed as one of the world’s greatest essayists.

Related Links
I knew JFK, and believe me Obama’s the better leader
Then and Now
He has crossed every boundary, I say. “Crashed many barriers,” he corrects me.

Last year he famously switched allegiance from Hillary Clinton to Barack Obama during the Democratic nomination process for president. Now, he reveals, he regrets his change of heart. How’s Obama doing? “Dreadfully. I was hopeful. He was the most intelligent person we’ve had in that position for a long time. But he’s inexperienced. He has a total inability to understand military matters. He’s acting as if Afghanistan is the magic talisman: solve that and you solve terrorism.” America should leave Afghanistan, he says. “We’ve failed in every other aspect of our effort of conquering the Middle East or whatever you want to call it.” The “War on Terror” was “made up”, Vidal says. “The whole thing was PR, just like ‘weapons of mass destruction’. It has wrecked the airline business, which my father founded in the 1930s. He’d be cutting his wrists. Now when you fly you’re both scared to death and bored to death, a most disagreeable combination.”

His voice strengthens. “One thing I have hated all my life are LIARS [he says that with bristling anger] and I live in a nation of them. It was not always the case. I don’t demand honour, that can be lies too. I don’t say there was a golden age, but there was an age of general intelligence. We had a watchdog, the media.” The media is too supine? “Would that it was. They’re busy preparing us for an Iranian war.” He retains some optimism about Obama “because he doesn’t lie. We know the fool from Arizona [as he calls John McCain] is a liar. We never got the real story of how McCain crashed his plane [in 1967 near Hanoi, North Vietnam] and was held captive.”

Vidal originally became pro-Obama because he grew up in “a black city” (meaning Washington), as well as being impressed by Obama’s intelligence. “But he believes the generals. Even Bush knew the way to win a general was to give him another star. Obama believes the Republican Party is a party when in fact it’s a mindset, like Hitler Youth, based on hatred — religious hatred, racial hatred. When you foreigners hear the word ‘conservative’ you think of kindly old men hunting foxes. They’re not, they’re fascists.”

Another notable Obama mis-step has been on healthcare reform. “He f***ed it up. I don’t know how because the country wanted it. We’ll never see it happen.” As for his wider vision: “Maybe he doesn’t have one, not to imply he is a fraud. He loves quoting Lincoln and there’s a great Lincoln quote from a letter he wrote to one of his generals in the South
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/l...cle6854221.ece
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Old 09-30-2009, 12:57 PM   #817
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BVS, if you honestly believe the majority of the tea-party protesters were racists, then I don't see much of a point. Because they're not. They're just not, and you'll never understand it for whatever reason, whether it's some sort of deep-seeded hatred for conservatism or your unyielding fascination with everything this president does... I don't know.


you don't think race factors at all?

do you think that GWB would have been as popular with his base (for a little while, at least) if he had been black?

you see, you can't avoid race, it can't be factored out of life. it's always there, and our perceptions are colored by it.

that just is.
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Old 09-30-2009, 01:18 PM   #818
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Some on the Left say he is failing:
Interesting that you are taking the side of someone who says the "war on terror is made up".

Maybe he isn't failing after all
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Old 09-30-2009, 01:52 PM   #819
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you don't think race factors at all?

do you think that GWB would have been as popular with his base (for a little while, at least) if he had been black?

you see, you can't avoid race, it can't be factored out of life. it's always there, and our perceptions are colored by it.

that just is.
if gw would have been black..he would have won by even wider margins against the bore and senator botox.

nothing and nobody could have touched a rugged conservative black cowboy.

it would have been the left's worst nightmare.

<>
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Old 09-30-2009, 01:52 PM   #820
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