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Old 09-10-2009, 06:09 PM   #561
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Not only did members of the GOP wave signs like they were at a town hall last night, not only did one call the president a liar, but now we find out that one of them stood up and walked out during the speech.

Shimkus walked on Obama: 'Frustrated': The Swamp

Are they trying to collectively have no class or what?
(beating Irvine to the punch here) But it has nothing to do with race whatsoever.
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:13 PM   #562
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I don't see a problem with elected representatives shouting 'you lie' or walking out. These are entirely legitimate expressions of disagreement. I'm sure things like that have happened in the Canadian parliament at some stage or other.
We have the parliamentary system like you though, so we're used to having our PM stand up there to get insulted once a week. (Actually sorry, I totally forgot you weren't English, heh)

It was quite unprecedented by American standards, that's sort of the point.
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:28 PM   #563
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We have the parliamentary system like you though, so we're used to having our PM stand up there to get insulted once a week. (Actually sorry, I totally forgot you weren't English, heh)
The Irish parliamentary system is broadly similar to the UK. Representatives are sometimes asked to leave the Dail for 'unparliamentary language', but it is viewed for the most part as a misdemeanour.

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It was quite unprecedented by American standards, that's sort of the point.
I know what you mean about it being relatively unprecedented by (recent) US standards, but I suspect this veneration of the Sacred Office of POTUS mullarkey is a relatively recent thing - for which the Republicans are largely to blame, ironically.
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:35 PM   #564
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So Joe Wilson has apologized for his breach of decorum, but still insists he "disagrees with the Presidents comments" regarding illegal immigrant coverage under the proposed bill.

Gee, that's odd:

Quote:
H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.
So either Wilson hasn't even read the bill and is simply ignorant, or he's the liar.

Sort of reminds me of another recent political controversy in California politics:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem...ht_on_tape.php

Summary: Dumbass Family-Values Republican, who was recently asked to chair the ethics committee, caught on hot mic bragging to another assemblyman about not one, but two ongoing affairs (did I mention he's married?), one with a lobbyist that represents a company that was involved in another committee he sat on. When it blows up and he realizes he just killed his political career, does he apologize for his behavior? For publicly standing for family-values while undermining them in reality? No. This is his statement:

Quote:
I am deeply saddened that my inappropriate comments have become a major distraction for my colleagues in the Assembly, who are working hard on the very serious problems facing our state. I have come to the conclusion that it would not be fair to my family, my constituents or to my friends on both sides of the aisle to remain in office. Therefore, I have decided to resign my office, effective immediately, so that the Assembly can get back to work.
I'm not actually apologizing for being wrong, or completely misrepresenting who I am and what I stand for, I'm just apologizing because it got in the news. Kinda like Wilson apologizing for his outburst but not for misrepresenting the truth.

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Old 09-10-2009, 06:38 PM   #565
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If not international rating agencies, then what's your signal of impending bankruptcy?

The US dollar has depreciated against the Euro since Obama took office, so that could be a negative signal, certainly. That said, it is still worth more against the Euro and other main trading currencies than it was in June 2008, when Bush was still in office.

These things aren't really reducible to soundbites though, are they?

If the US does go bankrupt, then I would allocate the blame 80% Bush cronies, 20% Obama.
That Obama spent 4 times as much money as Bush already.
He will raise takes to try and cover this, the economy will then tank faster than it is already.

Watch.

<>
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:43 PM   #566
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That Obama spent 4 times as much money as Bush already.
Do you have a souce for this?

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the economy will then tank faster than it is already.

Watch.

<>
I've suggested that we try and avoid simplistic soundbites, but if you want to stay in that frame, the Dow Jones by my calculation is up 18% since the inauguration.
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:08 PM   #567
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So Joe Wilson has apologized for his breach of decorum, but still insists he "disagrees with the Presidents comments" regarding illegal immigrant coverage under the proposed bill.

Gee, that's odd:
Quote:
H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.
Nothing about verifying citizenship status however and attempts by Republicans to do so were voted down in committee.

Quote:
So either Wilson hasn't even read the bill and is simply ignorant, or he's the liar.
The Congressional Research Service (CRS), the "research arm" for the United States Congress, dissagrees with you saying in their report "H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitizens - whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently - participating in the Exchange."

But c'mon Diemen. You live in a sanctuary city. Not only do you refuse to comply with current federal immigration laws, not only do you not enforce current laws against hiring illegal aliens but you specifically direct law enforcement agencies to not enquire about legal status. So employers and cops don't inquire about citizenship status but with this new law doctors and hospital administrators will? C'mon.
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:21 PM   #568
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That Obama spent 4 times as much money as Bush already.
Oh really??!!
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:23 PM   #569
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It seems to me that the overall vocal conservative voice is losing it.

No decorum. Not informed. And full of hate...

When will you guys demand something better?
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:34 PM   #570
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More attributes of the new administration:

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Old 09-10-2009, 07:49 PM   #571
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The Irish parliamentary system is broadly similar to the UK. Representatives are sometimes asked to leave the Dail for 'unparliamentary language', but it is viewed for the most part as a misdemeanour.

I know what you mean about it being relatively unprecedented by (recent) US standards, but I suspect this veneration of the Sacred Office of POTUS mullarkey is a relatively recent thing - for which the Republicans are largely to blame, ironically.


Yes, a Prime Minister here would take that from their political opposition ten times before breakfast, and they’ll front a proper grilling from the media multiple times in any/every week where there is zero deference to the office. Any policy, any idea, any plan, any controversy - they will get hammered on it from all angles, and they will HAVE to front up to every one of them. I’ve never understood why the US President is so protected, and why the public – on either side – accept everything so ridiculously stage managed.

And just as an aside, the last time I saw someone get into anywhere remotely near this much trouble in Australian Parliament was when a respected elected member got up and gave a little speech, where midway through he slipped in the little fact that he thought that the Prime Minister of the day, who was present, and the Treasurer, also present, were a pair of cunts.
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:54 PM   #572
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More attributes of the new administration:
[/url]
Yeah, I think it was Obama in that extremely ridiculous pimp outfit.

What a fucking joke.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:28 PM   #573
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Questions for Obama supporters:

Could O say do something that would make you stop carrying for him? If so what?

Serious answers only.
He's doing/done a few things that have really pissed me off, but no, nothing that would make me stop supporting him.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:50 PM   #574
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Regarding the deference to the US President (Presidency?), I think although inflated in recent decades it probably has a long history. You did replace a king with an elected executive, after all. It's that head of state/head of government duality. The prime minister is not, and never can be, the Head of State.

I think the closest parallel with our system would be if Nancy Pelosi was running the country and Obama was opening flower shows.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:52 PM   #575
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Also a further point of thought: the 20th and 21st century presidency with its vast aura of prestige also has a lot to do with the position's status as civilian commander in chief of the military. America's military excursions have come to shadow the nation's politics to a significant degree, as well, in this period.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:13 PM   #576
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But c'mon Diemen. You live in a sanctuary city. Not only do you refuse to comply with current federal immigration laws, not only do you not enforce current laws against hiring illegal aliens but you specifically direct law enforcement agencies to not enquire about legal status. So employers and cops don't inquire about citizenship status but with this new law doctors and hospital administrators will? C'mon.


the furor over "illegal immigrants" amounts to about as much as the furor over "tort reform" -- sure, it would be nice to fix these things, and it might be one piece of a very big puzzle, but it's a distraction from the actual, tough issues and amounts to little more than scapegoating.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:15 PM   #577
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the furor over "illegal immigrants" amounts to about as much as the furor over "tort reform" -- sure, it would be nice to fix these things, and it might be one piece of a very big puzzle, but it's a distraction from the actual, tough issues and amounts to little more than scapegoating.
Exactly. These two issues are part of much bigger issues. Not to be written into healthcare reform.

But what else do we expect?
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:19 PM   #578
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Regarding the deference to the US President (Presidency?), I think although inflated in recent decades it probably has a long history. You did replace a king with an elected executive, after all. It's that head of state/head of government duality. The prime minister is not, and never can be, the Head of State.

I think the closest parallel with our system would be if Nancy Pelosi was running the country and Obama was opening flower shows.



yes, and no. but pretty good for a ferr-in-err.

individuals vote directly for a candidate for president. the president is the head of the executive branch of government, one of three branches -- the other being the legislative (Congress -- divided up into the House of Representatives and the Senate) and the judicial (the Supreme Court). a Prime Minister is not a President, and vice versa.

there has always been a strong sense of decorum and propriety surrounding the presidency, and it's something that i don't think that most other countries have. i believe reporters still stand when he enters the room for example. in contrast, there is debate, argument, etc., on the floor of Congress whenever legislation is being discussed. we do not have a particular "question time" like i've seen (and enjoyed watching) in the UK, and while i think it might not be a bad thing, it's simply not part of tradition or culture.

US presidents go through a grilling -- relatively -- in press conferences (you'll note that Bush had ... what, less than a dozen in 8 years?) and the actual running for president is pretty much 2 years of debates.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:23 PM   #579
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I'd like to see us adopt Taiwan's lovely tradition of legislators occasionally pounding the shit out of each other.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:29 PM   #580
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Yeah, I think it was Obama in that extremely ridiculous pimp outfit.

What a fucking joke.
What is a joke? Don't tell me you're denying what is happening in that video as being seriously immoral at best and seriously illegal at worst. And this is the organization that trained our president...
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