Obama General Discussion II

[hiphop]

If this

"I expected to go back to a round of meetings [on 2001-09-12], examining what the next attacks could be, what our vulnerabilities were, what we could do about them in the short term. Instead, I walked into a series of discussions about Iraq. At first I was incredulous that we were talking about something other than getting al Qaeda."

is true - just a single day after 9/11 - it gives credibility to those weird conspiracy theories that 9/11 was mounted.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

These quotes are alternatingly laughable and utterly depressing.

"In Afghanistan, we helped to liberate an oppressed people, and we will continue helping them secure their country, rebuild their society and educate all their children, boys and girls."
George W. Bush, State of the Union Address, 2003-01-29.

Yeah, so how's that mission working out for everybody?

"Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons and other plans, this time armed by Saddam Hussein. It would take one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known. Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike?"
George W. Bush, State of the Union Address, 2003-01-29.

Boy, funny he has such urgency and says all that now. If he truly believes that, then um, how'd they manage to ignore that little memo pre-9/11?

"Then I realised with an almost sharp physical pain that Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz were trying to take advantage of this national tragedy to promote their agenda about Iraq. Since the beginning of the administration, indeed well before, they had been pressing for a war with Iraq. My friends in the Pentagon had been telling me that the word was we would be invading Iraq sometimes in 2002."
Richard A. Clarke, White House Counter Terrorism Chief, "Against All Enemies Inside the White House’s War on Terror — What Really Happened"

This is the most disturbing part to me. This is the part that makes me sick to my stomach. Fuck the Bush administration.

Here´s the effects of the American lie:

* It cried wolf about nuclear war.
* It framed an innocent country.
* It conned the taxpayers of $300+ billion and funneled it to the likes of Halliburton.
* It attempted to steal the second largest oil reserves on the planet worth trillions.
* It sent over 1100 young Americans to their deaths, thinking they were saving America from a nuclear attack, when in reality they were participating in a robbery.
* It sent thousands of Iraqi children and an estimated 150,000 civilians to hideously painful deaths.

Pretty much sums it up. I'm not one to follow the 9/11 conspiracies, because as horrid as the Bush administration was, I'd like to think they aren't THAT deranged, but if it indeed is proven that they had some hand in this, or set it up entirely, or something, then so help me, God.... I will pray every last bit of the worst kind of karma comes back to bite them all in the ass.

Angela

 

[hiphop]

I'm not one to follow the 9/11 conspiracies,

Neither am I,

I'd like to think they aren't THAT deranged, but if it indeed is proven that they had some hand in this, or set it up entirely, or something, then so help me, God.... I will pray every last bit of the worst kind of karma comes back to bite them all in the ass.

Angela

but the evidence is threatening

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report

Patriots Question 9/11 - Engineers and Architects Question the 9/11 Commission Report

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report

9/11 Inside Job

 

[A_Wanderer]

The conspiracy is the group of devout men who collaborated in mass murder. The missed opportunities where they could have been stopped is more incompetent than malicious.

 

[hiphop]

The conspiracy is the group of devout men who collaborated in mass murder. The missed opportunities where they could have been stopped is more incompetent than malicious.

I was the same opinion but read the links, the evidence that is was an inside job is there. Apparently not only weird conspiracy theorists have serious doubts, but respected people:

Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army
General Wesley Clark, U.S. Army
Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps
Capt. Edgar Mitchell, U.S. Navy, BS Industrial Management, BS Aeronautical Engineering, Doctor of Science, Aeronautics and Astronautics from MIT
Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force
Col. George Nelson, MBA, U.S. Air Force
Col. Ann Wright, U.S. Army
Col. Donn de Grand-Pre, U.S. Army
Lt. Col. Shelton F. Lankford, U.S. Marine Corps
Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force & NSA
Lt. Col. Guy S. Razer, MS Aeronautical Science, U.S. Air Force
Lt. Col. Jeff Latas, U.S. Air Force
Commander Ted Muga, U.S. Navy
Commander Ralph Kolstad, U.S. Navy
Major Douglas Rokke, PhD, U.S. Army

and the list goes on and on:

220+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
1,200+ Engineers and Architects
250+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
300+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members

Here´s just one of thousands of statements:

Robin Hordon – Former FAA Air Traffic Controller at the Boston Air Route Traffic Control Center, located in Nashua, NH, 1970 - 1981. FAA certified commercial pilot. FAA certified Flight Instructor and certified Ground Instructor: "I knew within hours of the attacks on 9/11/2001 that it was an inside job. Based on my 11-year experience as an FAA Air Traffic Controller in the busy Northeast corridor, including hundreds of hours of training, briefings, air refuelings, low altitude bombing drills, being part of huge military exercises, daily military training exercises, interacting on a routine basis directly with NORAD radar personnel, and based on my own direct experience dealing with in-flight emergency situations, including two instances of hijacked commercial airliners, I state unequivocally; There is absolutely no way that four large commercial airliners could have flown around off course for 30 to 60 minutes on 9/11 without being intercepted and shot completely out of the sky by our jet fighters unless very highly placed people in our government and our military wanted it to happen.

It is important for people to understand that scrambling jet fighters to intercept aircraft showing the signs of experiencing "IN-FLIGHT EMERGENCIES" such as going off course without authorization, losing a transponder signal and/or losing radio contact is a common and routine task executed jointly between the FAA and NORAD controllers. The entire "national defense-first responder" intercept system has many highly-trained civilian and military personnel who are committed and well-trained to this task. FAA and NORAD continuously monitor our skies and fighter planes and pilots are on the ready 24/7 to handle these situations. Jet fighters typically intercept any suspect plane over the United States within 10 - 15 minutes of notification of a problem.

This type of "immediate, high speed, high priority and emergency" scramble had been happening regularly approximately 75 - 150 times per year for ten years. ...

I believe that 9/11 was what is known as a "False Flag Operation" in which a country inflicts casualties upon itself, and then blames it on an enemy that they want to go to war against. It is one more instance in the United States’ long history of using "False Flag Operations" and blatant propaganda to ramp-up hostile emotions towards an enemy in a population otherwise resistant to going to war."

William Rodrigues, WTC survivor:

Regarding an explosion in the sub-basement of the World Trade Center North Tower on 9/11, prior to any airplane impact. "When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and it everything started shaking," said Rodriguez, who was huddled together with at least 14 other people in the office. [At this point, Mr. Rodriguez was in sub-basement B1 of the North Tower, approximately 1,100 feet below the airplane's impact point at floors 93 to 98.]

"Seconds after the first massive explosion below in the basement still rattled the floor, I hear another explosion from way above," said Rodriguez. "Although I was unaware at the time, this was the airplane hitting the tower, it occurred moments after the first explosion."

But before Rodriguez had time to think, co-worker Felipe David stormed into the basement office with severe burns on his face and arms, screaming for help and yelling "explosion! explosion! explosion!"

David had been in front of a nearby freight elevator on sub-level 1 about 400 feet from the office when fire burst out of the elevator shaft, causing his injuries.

"He was burned terribly," said Rodriguez. "The skin was hanging off his hands and arms. His injuries couldn't have come from the airplane above, but only from a massive explosion below. I don’t care what the government says, what scientists say. I saw a man burned terribly from a fire that was caused from an explosion below.

I know there were explosives placed below the trade center. I helped a man to safety who is living proof, living proof the government story is a lie and a cover-up. I disagree 100%with the government story," said Rodriguez. "I met with the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors and they essentially discounted everything I said regarding the use of explosives to bring down the north tower. And I contacted NIST previously four times without a response. Finally, this week I asked them before they came up with their conclusion that jet fuel brought down the towers, if they ever considered my statements or the statements of any of the other survivors who heard the explosions. They just stared at me with blank faces and didn't have any answers."

Read what they have to say before giving a thumbs down.

 

[A_Wanderer]

You are flinging numbers of supporters around without providing strong evidence. Where is the residue from the supposed explosives at the bottom of the tower?

Your first name is Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army who believes in psychic warfare and claims he can walk through walls.

I looked at Wesley Clark's comments from that site and I think it is dishonest to say he supports the notion the attacks were a false-flag operation.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think when you look at this country, right now, we need a 2-party system that works, we need Congress to do its job, we need real investigation of some of the abuses of authority that are apparently going on at the Executive branch, we need <crosstalk>

George Stephanopoulos: Like what?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We need to really get to the bottom of the Abramoff scandal, we should have a special prosecutor appointed for that, we really need a congressional investigation of the whole business of the NSA wiretapping and how far that goes, there's been a lot of squirreling around the edges; we've never completed the investigation of 9/11 and whether the administration actually misused the intelligence information it had - the evidence seems pretty clear to me, I've seen that for a long time. I think Americans are best served by a strong 2-party system and that's been out of whack and what I can do in 2006 is try to help the right Democrats get into office and that's what I'm going to do.

I reiterate my

 

[hiphop]

You are flinging numbers of supporters around without providing strong evidence.

We both weren´t there. You probably were in Australia while I was in Europe.

So how do you explain William Rodriguez´ comment, a man who actually was in the towers? You apparently think his co-worker Felipe would run down 90 floors in 90 seconds, severly burned, to make up a story about explosives?

There are countless facts on the site that show how strong the evidence for a "false flag operation" (as they seem to call it) is. But hey, I´m not trying to convince anyone, and the last person on earth would be you. As far as I recall, you´ve supported this war from day 1.

It´s none of my business, but the business of American soldiers and the Iraqi civilians and soldiers who died - and those who survived.

 

[A_Wanderer]

It seems plausible that jet fuel explosions could rush through an elevator shaft and create an explosion in lower levels. The gravitational collapse of the towers occurs from the weight at the top causing a failure in those middle stories as they were structurally compromised by the burning fuel. That isn't consistent with a base explosion model that you are suggesting.

It is a muddled story. Why would your conspirators use explosives as well as hijacked planes when either one would have done the job by itself. It is a needless and unfounded complication to suppose that there were secret explosives planted onsite before the planes hit. I think conspiratorial thinking is disordered and only serves to discredit legitimate critiques of western foreign policy.

I also don't think my position on the Iraq war (which has changed in a conflicted way) is relevant to the reality of the September 11 attacks. I still think that 9/11 "truthers" deserve a

 

[AEON]

I have a hard time accepting the notion that because the military didn't shoot down the planes immediately is proof of an inside job. Until 9/11 - nothing like this (on this scale) had ever happened. Nobody would have seriously considered shooting hundreds of civilians out of the sky pre-9/11.

I am just surprised nobody is really blaming the Free-Masons...

 

[PhilsFan]

Really, so what was the US military's objective on March 19, 2003 as they entered Iraq?

"To disarm Iraq."
"To undermine Saddam Hussein's ability to wage war."
"Our purpose is sure. The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder."
- George W. Bush, March 19th, 2003

The military objective was to disarm a country planning to wage war with weapons of mass murder.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

These quotes are alternatingly laughable and utterly depressing.


Quote:
"In Afghanistan, we helped to liberate an oppressed people, and we will continue helping them secure their country, rebuild their society and educate all their children, boys and girls."
George W. Bush, State of the Union Address, 2003-01-29.

Yeah, so how's that mission working out for everybody?

We've liberated the people from the Taliban, for the most part. And we are continuing to rebuild and secure the country, even though its not going so great right now. Nobody said it would be a cake-walk.

 

[Inner El Guapo]

9/11 Conspiracy Theories - Debunking the Myths - World Trade Center - Pentagon - Flight 93 - Popular Mechanics
Debunking 911 Conspiracy Theories and Controlled Demolition Homepage
Journal Of Debunking? 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
http://debunk911myths.org/

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

We've liberated the people from the Taliban, for the most part. And we are continuing to rebuild and secure the country, even though its not going so great right now. Nobody said it would be a cake-walk.

No, and I certainly don't expect it to be, but it just seems that I'm not really hearing any good news right now, so it's hard to believe this is for the best. I don't expect it to happen overnight, either, but how long is long enough to feel like we've properly "finished" our mission?

Angela

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Huffington Post

Fueling the myth mongering that Barack Obama is not a natural-born U.S. citizen, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich said in a recent interview that the president may follow a "Kenyan, anti-colonial" worldview.

Speaking to the National Review, Gingrich pointed to a recent Forbes article by conservative writer Dinesh D'Souza which attempted to trace the origins of Obama's personal and political philosophies.

"What if [Obama] is so outside our comprehension, that only if you understand Kenyan, anti-colonial behavior, can you begin to piece together [his actions]?" Gingrich asked. "That is the most accurate, predictive model for his behavior."

"This is a person who is fundamentally out of touch with how the world works, who happened to have played a wonderful con, as a result of which he is now president," Gingrich added.

"I think he worked very hard at being a person who is normal, reasonable, moderate, bipartisan, transparent, accommodating -- none of which was true," Gingrich continues. "In the Alinksy tradition, he was being the person he needed to be in order to achieve the position he needed to achieve. ... He was authentically dishonest."

Considering D'Souza's and Gingrich's prominence within conservative intellectual circles, it stands to reason that their article and interview respectively, will be much discussed in the week ahead. Certainly, it appears, Democrats aren't shying away from pointing to the content as evidence that the GOP is top-heavy with extreme rhetoric and elements.

"This crushes the hopes of those who thought Gingrich could bring ideas instead of smears to what the GOP was offering," said DNC Press Secretary Hari Sevugan. "He's not a reasonable man that some thought he could be. He's proven he's just like the rest of them. With a worldview shaped by the most radical and fringe elements of the Republican Party, which are more dominant with each passing day."


This article originally referred to the myth that President Obama is not a 'naturalized' citizen rather than a natural-born citizen. We regret the error.

 

[BVS]

"This is a person who is fundamentally out of touch with how the world works, who happened to have played a wonderful con, as a result of which he is now president," Gingrich added.

How is one so out of touch with how the world works yet able to con his way into the presidency of the United States? Explain that one to me Newt...

Do us all a favor Newt, you and your racist buddy D'Souza shut the fuck up. You're a waste of our time.

 

[BoMac]

conservative intellectual circles

ox·y·mo·ron
n. pl. ox·y·mo·ra (-môr

, -m

r

) or ox·y·mo·rons A rhetorical figure in which incongruous or contradictory terms are combined, as in a deafening silence and a mournful optimist.

 

[Diemen]

"This is a person who is fundamentally out of touch with how the world works, who happened to have played a wonderful con, as a result of which he is now president," Gingrich added.

Riiight, he conned his way into the White House. Sneaky Black Man tricked all us poor white folk, right?

"I think he worked very hard at being a person who is normal, reasonable, moderate, bipartisan, transparent, accommodating -- none of which was true,"

Tell me, when was the last time the Republican party as a whole acted in moderate, bipartisan, transparent and accommodating ways?

Gingrich continues. "In the Alinksy tradition, he was being the person he needed to be in order to achieve the position he needed to achieve.

If that's the Alinsky tradition, then every single politician is guilty of the same thing. You said it best, Newt: "It doesn't matter what I do, it matters what I say."

The whole thing just strikes me as incredibly intellectually lazy, since he's essentially parroting what D'Souza said in his article. But, like the right has operated for years, I guess if you repeat the same thing enough times, people will think it's true.

 

[Strongbow]

I tend to ignore trolls.

Anyway, for the sake of history, here´s a couple of statements:

"What’s the difference?"
George W. Bush, 2003-12-16 in an interview with Diane Sawyer, excusing his lie that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, by claiming that there was no difference between having weapons and wanting to have them.

"Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof — the smoking gun — that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud."
George W. Bush, Cincinnati, Ohio, 2002-10-07, on evidence for Iraq’s non-existent nukes.

"The danger is clear: using chemical, biological or, one day, nuclear weapons, obtained with the help of Iraq, the terrorists could fulfill their stated ambitions and kill thousands or hundreds of thousands of innocent people in our country, or any other.".

You can cherry pick all the different qoutes you want to, it does not change the fact that Saddam was in violation of 17 UN Security Council Resolutions passed under chapter VII rules of the United Nations as well as the 1991 Gulf War Ceacefire agreement.

It does not change the fact that the coalition forces were authorized to use military force to bring about enforcement of the UN Security Council Resolutions as well as the Gulf War Ceacefire agreement.

The US military and coalition forces operated under the same rules that had governed the use of military force against Saddam's regime since 1991.

Unfortunately, it turned out that the only way that the resolutions could be enforced was through the complete removal of Saddam's regime through a coalition invasion of the country.

The only way to insure that Saddam would never invade or attack his neighbors, sieze or destroy the largest source of energy for the planet, develop or acquire new conventional and unconventional weapons, use WMD against his neighbors, was by removing the entire regime through a coalition invasion of the country. The collapse of the sanctions and weapons embargo, the key features of containment policy which was the only other option for dealing with Saddam, made the invasion and removal of the regime a necessity.

Here´s the effects of the American lie:

* It cried wolf about nuclear war.
* It framed an innocent country.
* It conned the taxpayers of $300+ billion and funneled it to the likes of Halliburton.
* It attempted to steal the second largest oil reserves on the planet worth trillions.
* It sent over 1100 young Americans to their deaths, thinking they were saving America from a nuclear attack, when in reality they were participating in a robbery.
* It sent thousands of Iraqi children and an estimated 150,000 civilians to hideously painful deaths

Wow, more boneheaded European horse dung.

 

[BoMac]

 

[Strongbow]

You're gonna have to homeschool your kids because that is not how the history books will report it.

Maybe the history books written in San Francisco.

But please, explain to everyone George Bush's plan to invade Iraq, while keeping Saddam's regime in power?

The invasion force that was built up in Kuwait was specifically designed to overthrow the regime. This was the objective on March 19, 2003 because it had become the only way to enforce the 17 UN Security Council Resolutions and the 1991 Gulf War Ceacefire agreement all of which Saddam was in violation of.

 

[Diemen]

Wow, more boneheaded European horse dung.

You're on thin ice as it is, Sting.

 

[Diemen]

Maybe the history books written in San Francisco.

But please, explain to everyone George Bush's plan to invade Iraq, while keeping Saddam's regime in power?

The invasion force that was built up in Kuwait was specifically designed to overthrow the regime. This was the objective on March 19, 2003 because it had become the only way to enforce the 17 UN Security Council Resolutions and the 1991 Gulf War Ceacefire agreement all of which Saddam was in violation of.

Time for everyone to get back on topic.

 

[BVS]

Maybe the history books written in San Francisco.

But please, explain to everyone George Bush's plan to invade Iraq, while keeping Saddam's regime in power?

[/B]

You're confusing results with reasons.

But on the other hand there is a second career for you out there:

for you're great at twisting things.

 

[Diemen]

BVS, you're not helping.

 

[BVS]

Sorry, was already responding when you made your post.

 

[Strongbow]

"To disarm Iraq."
"To undermine Saddam Hussein's ability to wage war."
"Our purpose is sure. The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder."
- George W. Bush, March 19th, 2003

The military objective was to disarm a country planning to wage war with weapons of mass murder.

Also from George W. Bush, March 19, 2003

"On my orders, coalition forces have begun striking selected targets of military importance to undermine Saddam Hussein's ability to wage war." These are opening stages of what will be a broad and concerted campaign."

"The enemies you confront will come to know your skill and bravery. The people you liberate will witness the honorable and decent spirit of the American military. In this conflict, America faces an enemy who has no regard for conventions of war or rules of morality. Saddam Hussein has placed Iraqi troops and equipment in civilian areas, attempting to use innocent men, women and children as shields for his own military -- a final atrocity against his people. "



"I want Americans and all the world to know that coalition forces will make every effort to spare innocent civilians from harm. A campaign on the harsh terrain of a nation as large as California could be longer and more difficult than some predict. And helping Iraqis achieve a united, stable and free country will require our sustained commitment."


"We come to Iraq with respect for its citizens, for their great civilization and for the religious faiths they practice. We have no ambition in Iraq, except to remove a threat and restore control of that country to its own people. "


So maybe you could explain how Bush planned to "liberate" Iraq without removing Saddam.

 

[Diemen]

Way to go, Sting.

 

[PhilsFan]

EDIT: Redacted.

 

[hiphop]

You're on thin ice as it is, Sting.

Ah Diemen, let the troll blabber on, I don´t have time for crap anyway. Working with 3 different artists at the moment, all in different production stages.

Back to the topic, I wish Obama good luck while all the world clearly states he does a better job than Bush did.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Fueling the myth mongering that Barack Obama is not a natural-born U.S. citizen, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich said in a recent interview that the president may follow a "Kenyan, anti-colonial" worldview.

HOW MUCH LONGER ARE WE GOING TO CONTINUE WITH THIS CRAP?????

Sorry for the caps, but honestly...shut the hell up already about this, people, sheesh.

"This is a person who is fundamentally out of touch with how the world works, who happened to have played a wonderful con, as a result of which he is now president," Gingrich added.

Oh, gee, yeah, 'cause Im just one of dem stupid folk who was lured in by his bright n' shiny flashy stuff, mmhm.

Or, you know, not. And of course we all know just how in touch with the public Newt is .

Considering D'Souza's and Gingrich's prominence within conservative intellectual circles

There is such a thing for politicians?

(That was snide. I know)

"This crushes the hopes of those who thought Gingrich could bring ideas instead of smears to what the GOP was offering," said DNC Press Secretary Hari Sevugan. "He's not a reasonable man that some thought he could be. He's proven he's just like the rest of them. With a worldview shaped by the most radical and fringe elements of the Republican Party, which are more dominant with each passing day."

Um...duh?

Angela