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Old 09-19-2010, 03:42 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen View Post
I have no issue with anyone who has logical and rational opposition to Obama and I have some of my own. I think you're supposed to or you're really not paying attention or doing your part.

For me it just gets all kinds of crazy when they take things he does and twist them into these paranoid wild theories and some people just buy into those without critical thinking. I was reading on a Nook yesterday about that book that's out by that David Limbaugh guy about how Obama's is the most destructive administration in our history and how all of these things he's doing are part of some sort of preexisting plan he had to purposefully mislead us and to carry out his master plan. Where is the evidence? It's all kinds of spaghetti being thrown against a wall and it does seem to be sticking.

I often wonder what it would be like now if Hillary Clinton had won and if these same people would be doing the same things to her even if she handled things completely differently. Is it really about Obama?

True, all that.

I listen to my conservative friends (and I have many. They are wonderful people and I would trust them with my life, just not my politics.) and they have drawn this line....whatever is on their side is wonderful and just brimming with integrity and grit and whatever is on the other side is dishonest and manipulative (not that I haven't seen some of that cloudy judgment on the other side either). It feels like of Stepfordy.

That creeps me out wherever I see it.
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Old 09-19-2010, 03:58 PM   #262
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I honestly don't know how I feel about the bailout stuff. Of course, I'm insanely pissed off when I hear about CEOs continuing to get bonuses and live their luxury lifestyles instead of being fired or sent to jail for any wrongdoings any of them may have committed in relation to this whole mess.

Angela
Well, Richard Fuld will probably face civil if not criminal legal hassles for the rest of his life. There have been many cases of successful prosecutions in the US of former CEO's found to have engaged in malfeasance.


Most people have no idea of the level of commitment and sacrifice involved in running a large company. (the aforementioned Fuld, for example, use to arrive in the office at 5.30 a.m. pretty much every day of his career). Now, granted, Wall Street bonuses in recent years have been unseemly and excessive and there are issues around 'rewards for failure' in some banks. The banking bailouts started by Bush and continued by Obama stick in the craw and rightly so.
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Old 09-19-2010, 04:14 PM   #263
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Sorry, but I don't go along with this generalised and populist contempt for the boss class.
i guess it just boils down to greed at a time when a lot of people can't seem to make ends meet.

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Most people have no idea of the level of commitment and sacrifice involved in running a large company. (the aforementioned Fuld, for example, use to arrive in the office at 5.30 a.m. pretty much every day of his career).
While i don't exactly run a large company, i do arrive at my office around 0520 hours every morning. Granted i don't work as late as these guys do, but im pretty sure i don't make anywhere near the amount of money they do either.

I can tell you when i was in the Army, well i didn't really have an office back then, but i was on duty 24/7 subject to being called up and shipped out at any given time. My typical day usually started around 0530 back then and sometimes it never ended.

You are correct though these CEO's do put their heart and soul into running a company, with lots of sacrifice on their part and on the part of their families. Kind of like the military does, minus the lousy pay and all that combat zone stuff.
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Old 09-19-2010, 04:47 PM   #264
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I don't really have any problem with executives having huge salaries. There's a reason why the majority of them are there, favouritism or nepotism aside. Then again I don't really have a problem with pro sports salaries either.
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Old 09-19-2010, 08:18 PM   #265
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MrsSpringsteen hit it right on the head. There's this crazy fear around Obama that I really do not understand. I truly do not think he is out to corrupt our country's souls or bring us to the firey pits of hell or whatever it is some people think he's going to do. Hell, I wasn't even scared of Bush. Bush just made me sad (Cheney and Rumsfeld and the like, on the other hand, now that's a different story). And speaking as somebody who did vote for Obama, it's just insulting my intelligence, it's like these people think I and others who voted for him are stupid and just don't see the evil lurking in him. I mean, yeah, I tend to be more trusting of people than I probably should be, but I'd also like to think I'm a fairly good judge of character.

It never ceases to amaze me how the Democrats can constantly lose to such characters as O'Donnell or Palin or the like. You would think it'd be a complete cakewalk for them, but somehow, they manage to fumble it up. "Stepfordy" is the right word-hell, a lot of the people in the Republican Party even LOOK the part. Caked-on makeup (why does it always seem the women who are all super-Christ-y also wear way more makeup than is necessary?), plastered creepy smiles, the men look like the guys in those Extenze commercials...it's really unsettling.

(Speaking of crazy, by the way, so I've been seeing clips of the one guy who was recently running-his name escapes me now, buthe's ranting and screaming at the crowd and getting all in a frenzy and whatnot over why he was running. And I watch him and think, "So...he's perfectly okay, but Howard Dean let out a little yell at the end of a speech in 2004 in Iowa and everyone freaked out about that?")

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Well, Richard Fuld will probably face civil if not criminal legal hassles for the rest of his life. There have been many cases of successful prosecutions in the US of former CEO's found to have engaged in malfeasance.
Good. I hope that continues to be the case.

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Most people have no idea of the level of commitment and sacrifice involved in running a large company. (the aforementioned Fuld, for example, use to arrive in the office at 5.30 a.m. pretty much every day of his career). Now, granted, Wall Street bonuses in recent years have been unseemly and excessive and there are issues around 'rewards for failure' in some banks. The banking bailouts started by Bush and continued by Obama stick in the craw and rightly so.
Exactly. Like I've said before, if somebody has honestly and legitmately earned their keep and made a good living as a result, I'm fine with that. I have no issue with that.

But right now it just seems incompetence and corruption get praise and reward, and it's just infuriating to people. Especially when the money they scammed people out of could be put to better use, helping companies and people who genuinely could use it. And I do think it wouldn't kill the rich to share a little of their extra money every now and again. It's just the nice, decent thing to do.

But you are absolutely right, I imagine there is a lot that goes into running such a business. And that's why I'm torn. On the one hand, I don't want those who helped aid in the crisis to be rewarded, but on the other hand, the business itself may not be a bad business, it just unfortunately had some bad workers at its helm, so I don't know if we should necessarily throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. And there were some workers who were responsible and honest, and they shouldn't be punished for the actions of those who were crooks.

So yeah. It's very confusing.

Angela
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Old 09-19-2010, 08:41 PM   #266
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MrsSpringsteen hit it right on the head. There's this crazy fear around Obama that I really do not understand. I truly do not think he is out to corrupt our country's souls or bring us to the firey pits of hell or whatever it is some people think he's going to do.
He's black.

I don't always agree with Bill Maher, but he is exactly on point in this segment.

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Old 09-20-2010, 04:21 AM   #267
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It’s not simple racism. I don’t think it’s all about racism, but that absolutely is the fuel on the fire.
  • A genuine concern/fear/anger over government spending is absolutely understandable and real and okay, and you have to believe would likely exist regardless of who is President (especially if they are a Democrat).
  • Alongside that, this dawning of a realisation that the GOP establishment has been whipping up the base for years (decades) over social and cultural issues that it actually has no belief in, and no interest in addressing, is something that was surely going to come home to roost at some point in time. The GOP have been asking for this ‘insurgency’, IMO, for a long, long time. It’s entirely their own fault for playing their base for idiots for so long.

But you can’t tell me it wouldn’t be hitting these charged heights if Obama were white, or if simply it were Clinton that had won, all the way through. There might still have been a ‘Tea Party’ type movement based around reigning in government spending and reach, and if she’d tried again on healthcare, there no doubt would have been a somewhat similar reaction to that as well. There would definitely still be anger, probably still quite a charged environment, especially if it were a Clinton in power – quite the lightning rod for conservative hatred. But would there be all of this “Take America Back”, “Restoring Honour” bullshit, and screaming of socialist, Marxist, Hitler, tyranny, ‘evil’ taking over the country etc? Of course not.

And when you turn around and call one of these people a racist, they probably genuinely don’t feel that they are, in any simple “I don’t like black people” sense. But most of this – the acceptance and belief in people as moronic as Palin/Beck, an unfocussed outrage at and fear of anything government, the whole ridiculous ‘elitist’ thing, the over-reaction to everything (e.g. healthcare) as if its all some larger evil plot – is all absolutely born of an isolated ignorance, and a part of that with Obama as President is absolutely a deep discomfort with a black guy running the show. Definitely.

There is absolutely an element to their “what has gone wrong” argument and rage that doesn’t add up in any logical way. There’s the logical (spending, deficit etc), then this massive “?” gap between it and the extreme fear and rage. It has nothing to do with government spending, nothing to do with taxation, nothing to do with their own disappointment with the GOP – it has to have everything to do with an irrational inability to accept there’s a black guy in the Oval Office. Flip it to President Hillary Clinton, but leave everything else – bailouts, massive deficit, healthcare etc – the same. The real white hot end of the rage wouldn’t exist, would it? There’d be no argument about some fundamental change in America. No questioning of her - who is she, where is she really from, what is she really all about. No raging belief that she’s a secret angry extremist from somewhere else sent to destroy them all. It’s absolutely because he’s black. It’s absolutely racism.
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:08 PM   #268
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I often wonder what it would be like now if Hillary Clinton had won and if these same people would be doing the same things to her even if she handled things completely differently. Is it really about Obama?

I remember Bill Clintons 8 years very well.

The GOP were like rabid attack dogs the whole time.
He seemed to be better equipped to handle it than Obama is, it may just come down to an experience thing.
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Old 09-20-2010, 09:13 PM   #269
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My issue with the oppositon to Obama is that it is very simplistic and emotional rather than logical and rational.


and, in large part, it's an expression of non-urban white identity.
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Old 09-21-2010, 08:21 AM   #270
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I have to say I am surprised at the collapse of support for Obama.

and in all likelihood, the big hit the Dems will take in the Nov elections
I'm not. Here are a couple reasons:

McCain was a weak candidate
. When push came to shove, and independent voters and reluctant rural voters saw what a mess his campaign was in '08, they voted for Obama with no better choice. Now in 2010, many of those voters have no problem going after him.

The groundswell of young voter support for Obama was only there for the election. I'm 23; my generation is lazy. They're the kind of people who will turn out for the election when whipped up into action, but will not follow the "important" side of politics during the actual term. The recent Supreme Court decision on corporations and campaign finance is huge, but I doubt many voters my age are aware of it or care, when it is in fact one of the biggest things to happen in US politics in the 00s. Young voters will only return to polling stations with additional ID about 30% of the time to make sure a provisional ballot of theirs is actually counted. Lazy lazy lazy. Midterm elections are boring.

The Healthcare debate
. The Democrats unfortunately tried to play nice and do things in a bi-partisan fashion in the early-going, and they were utterly destroyed by the GOP's doom-and-gloom PR machine. Yes, it's very ironic seinor citizens will rail against Socialist Nazi Pig Obamacare while cashing their Social Security cheques and waiting for the volunteer Fire Department to come put out their house fires, but the Democrats let the Republicans take control of the debate over a long, hot summer, and it dragged out and got ugly. The healthcare debate was framed in a "big government" kind of way and not a "we need to do this so we don't go broke personally and as a nation" kind of way. I'm amazed the Dems didn't manage to appeal to the average American's pocketbook, when at the end of the day that is a more effective strategy than appealing to his regard for his fellow man.

~

The Democrats' ability to play meek underdogs and then completely squander a majority is still amazing. If they had half the PR capability of the GOP, the country would be on a better path today.

They were pussies during Iraq's early days, they were pussies when it all fell apart, and they were pussies in the administration-defining healthcare debate, with reps worrying about their own asses during the midterms that have now arrived.
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Old 09-21-2010, 08:40 AM   #271
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President Obama was hearing an earful from voters at a town hall meeting in the nation’s capitol yesterday.

Anger and disappointment was voiced by many in attendance, including Velma Hart, Chief Financial Officer for “American Vets” and Ted Brassfield, a law school grad. Hart and Brassfield spoke with CNN's Kiran Chetry on "American Morning's" about their feelings on Obama and clarified some of their statements from the town hall.

Kiran Chetry: Velma, when you said you were getting tired of defending the president, it's exhausting. Have you lost faith in the president? Or do you think it's simply the circumstances we're in that he doesn't necessarily have control of.

Velma Hart: It is absolutely the latter. But I don't know that he doesn't have control of it. I still have great faith in this president. I think that he is an amazing leader. I think he is inspirational.

Kiran Chetry: Ted, you asked whether or not you thought the "American Dream" was still attainable. Why did you choose that question? I know that you had a lot on your mind. You had a lot that you discussed among your friends. Why did you ask about the "American Dream?"

Ted Brassfield: Well, it's a real problem that a lot of us who have advanced degrees - and people who are going to college, maybe they don't know why they went to college. But we are facing massive student loans. The entire generation is just often facing six figures even when you go to public universities. And you have people like me who had good jobs but went back to school. Society says if you work hard, if you go to school, we will have good jobs for you. And that's why it's - you're willing to take on a massive amount of debt. And it seems like that's been lost. And it's really hurting a lot of my cohort.

Kiran Chetry: Did you get the answer you were looking for from the president or any more clarity on it?

Ted Brassfield: I think that unfortunately I felt that the president answered very effectively all of the other questions he was asked by the audience. But like Velma, I thought that I had given him a lay-up to say this is why you should still have hope. And he didn't say that. He didn't answer it at all.

Kiran Chetry: Well, Velma, you said you're exhausted defending him. What do people who have criticisms of the president that talk to you say? What are their biggest beefs?

Velma Hart: That he's all talk and no action, which I absolutely disagree with. I think the health care reform bill is action. I think the student loan legislation is action. I think there are - even, you know, like it or hate it, even the financial reform is action. So I don't get that argument. And I - and I get pretty passionate about it. I can't tell you I stand on top of tables and, you know, bang my head against the wall, but I believe in him. And I - you know, there's something about what he communicates that makes me believe that he's got a plan. I just - I’m tired of having debate - I think this is a moment of poker or something for me, maybe blackjack or 21. I want to have a card on the table that shuts the discussion and I don't have that yet.
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Old 09-22-2010, 09:24 AM   #272
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I saw that bit on TV. I fully agree with and understand the concerns those people brought up, and admire them for doing so in a reasonable, mature way. I guess my question is, though: what exactly IS the "American Dream"? Is it a general definition, or is it different things to different people? It's hard sometimes to work to give Americans this "dream" when it can mean so many different things.

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And when you turn around and call one of these people a racist, they probably genuinely don’t feel that they are, in any simple “I don’t like black people” sense.
Exactly. I know full well that the fact he's black is a massive reason for many of these people, but at the same time it doesn't seem like it's that simple, because there's many out there that I wouldn't peg as being racist but who really don't like him regardless, and so there have to be other factors. Is it that he managed to achieve his "American dream", to refer back to my earlier question, and these people haven't? Is it that he's smarter than some of them? Is it their general dislike of anything Democratic? What? Hell, I'm sure people here in FYM over the years that don't support Obama would feverently deny their dislike of Obama is related to his race, so if that is indeed the case, then what is their beef?

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The groundswell of young voter support for Obama was only there for the election. I'm 23; my generation is lazy. They're the kind of people who will turn out for the election when whipped up into action, but will not follow the "important" side of politics during the actual term. The recent Supreme Court decision on corporations and campaign finance is huge, but I doubt many voters my age are aware of it or care, when it is in fact one of the biggest things to happen in US politics in the 00s. Young voters will only return to polling stations with additional ID about 30% of the time to make sure a provisional ballot of theirs is actually counted. Lazy lazy lazy. Midterm elections are boring.
I can agree in some respects, but honestly, I don't know if this is so much due to "laziness" on our generation's part-rather, I think it's due to the fact that we, quite frankly, have a lot of really old people in our government (seriously, look at a session of Congress sometime. Old, white/gray-haired guy, old, white/gray-haired guy, and oh, look, another old, white/gray-haired guy). Our government as a whole is really out of touch with what young people care about today, they're still stuck in mindsets from 20, 30, 40, 50 plus years ago. Obama excited us because, hey, here's a guy who actually seems to give a damn about our generation, who doesn't brush us off and clings to this idea that "the older generations will run things forever!" and that we're too inexperienced and we're nothing but troublemakers ("Kids these days..."), he doesn't patronize us or dismiss our ideas. Unfortunately, once he won he had to work with a lot of these people of older generations, and has to try and appeal to older people as much as younger people, and since older people still have a lot of the control, they'll get more attention and priority.

I mean absolutely no disrepect to the older generations, as they have served us well and do deserve to be listened to and such, but I honestly think that's the biggest problem. I think young people care, or would care, a lot more than you think if they actually felt there was somebody out there who could put their concerns into action. If Obama and the Democrats managed to revive the youth vote again, that would be a definite help to them.

The rest of your post, however, is absolutely spot on. Can't disagree with a single word you said. Democrats desperately need a new game plan.

Angela
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Old 09-22-2010, 10:42 AM   #273
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So Bob Woodward has a book coming out, looks like there's a bunch of infighting in the Obama administration-especially about Afghanistan.

Rahm Emanuel might leave in October to run for mayor of Chicago. I think that might be a very good thing for Obama.
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:15 PM   #274
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I didn't vote for Obama in either the primary or the general (I had the luxury in the general election and could vote for Hillary and be able to cast a vote I really wanted to instead of being stuck voting for somebody like John Kerry. If it had looked like McCain/Palin had a chance of winning in PA, I would have voted for Obama). I'm sitting back and taking a wait and see attitude to see how things pan out. I like some of the bold things I thought he did early on. I think he's dropped the ball on a lot of other things.

Perhaps the people who supported him most were hoping for a vision and are now disappointed. I don't see one right now. (I don't see one in most politicians. I just hear soundbites) Winning the election doesn't change anything. Winning the election only gives you the chance to change something. You can't drop the ball because it is much harder to get it back than it was to get it in the first place.

Democracy is usually a boring thing, going to the polls year after year without many real choices, with only cosmetic differences or different buzzwords between the candidates--while you weigh who is going to end up hurting you the least.

The old people aren't going to give up the power they have. Nobody gives up power willingly. Ever. Even those old people who have no power. Somebody is going to have to take it and if the young people don't want it enough, they're not going to get it until the older generation dies off and the current young people become the old stick in the muds the new generation wants to move aside.

And you'll be wondering then, when was it exactly that I had any power?
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Old 09-22-2010, 01:27 PM   #275
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I read the Wall Street Journal article that compared Obama to Carter this morning, with a somewhat bemused eye. People forget that politics are always cyclical. It's hard not to watch all of this coverage and think of Bill Clinton's first two years, which Obama mirrors nicely (inheriting a recession, majorities in both Houses of Congress that nonetheless seemed ineffective, wrestling with similar domestic policies). It wasn't that long ago that Clinton was relegated to the background, lionized by the 1994 midterm elections, and forced to make speeches asserting his relevance. What a difference two years made -- he learned how to effectively govern from the middle, sorted the economy (granted, assisted by an unprecedented technology boom), and spent the next six years enjoying a (fairly) peaceful period of expansion.

For that matter, Reagan's first two years were pretty bumpy too.

Things always turn around.
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:41 AM   #276
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I understand what he's saying about making us stronger, but the word absorb sounds so strange in that context.

That's also some massive fodder for political purposes-ooh Obama says we can just absorb terrorism. I can just see the ads now.

Washington Post

"Woodward's book portrays Obama and the White House as barraged by warnings about the threat of terrorist attacks on U.S. soil and confronted with the difficulty in preventing them. During an interview with Woodward in July, the president said, "We can absorb a terrorist attack. We'll do everything we can to prevent it, but even a 9/11, even the biggest attack ever . . . we absorbed it and we are stronger."
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Old 09-27-2010, 03:25 PM   #277
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Obama Wants to Wiretap the Internet - Security from eWeek


Bush took a lot of heat for privacy issues


sounds like Obama wants to go even further
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Old 09-27-2010, 04:05 PM   #278
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Let's watch as those who celebrated the patriot act bash this, shall we?
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Old 09-27-2010, 04:43 PM   #279
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Better yet let's watch those who lambasted it look the other way.

And then let's take both groups of those people and send them to the Moon.
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Old 09-27-2010, 04:54 PM   #280
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I am one that lambasted (or at least was critical, or not trusting of Bush)

at this point I am indifferent
people are so stupid these days, putting all of their business and opinions of FB and twotter
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