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Old 12-02-2009, 09:29 AM   #141
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I'm one of the leftiest of the lefties here and I wholeheartedly agree with what Obama is doing. In fact, during the campaign, I said that pulling out of Iraq too soon would be a huge mistake, that after Bush's fuck up by starting the misguided war in the first place, the US owes it to the Iraqi people not to pull out until security is restored - the Pottery Barn rule.
Well, most Democrats including Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton supported removing Saddam from power back in 2003. The Persian Gulf is a much more secure place today with Saddam removed from power and it would be rather difficult to argue that the region and the world would be better off if Saddam were still the leader of Iraq.

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Now, Obama is doing what should have been done in the first place, by taking care of matters in Afghanistan, something that many liberals, myself included, and many nations, would have endorsed at the time. It's clearly what Bush should have done in the first place. Every time I see on the news that another Canadian soldier has been killed, which happens way too frequently, I curse Bush for his idiocy. If Bush had concentrated his efforts where he should have in the first place, it would be over by now, and most, if not all of the troops would be home.
Obama clearly stated in his speech that as President, he does not have the luxury of just concentrating on one problem at a time. Bush did not have the luxury of simply concentrating on just Afghanistan. There were other security needs and problems. In addition, much of the reason that the Taliban is currently resurgent has to do with the safe area's in Pakistan where they were allowed to rebuild, the primitive and undeveloped nature of Afghanistan society, and much less to do with a lack of US supplied resources for Afghanistan during the Bush years.

It is not at all clear that a more concentrated effort during the Bush years in Afghanistan would have meant that all troops would be home now and the situation would no longer be a problem. Afghanistans problems, what was accomplished there during the Bush years, and why the Taliban is now resurgent is complex and involves many different factors.

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So, to paint all Liberals with an anti-war brush is wrong. I don't think there are many that would dispute the need to go into Afghanistan, it's the trumped up reasons for going into Iraq that most take issue with.
Current polls show that 60% to 70% of registered Democrats are against the War in Afghanistan and do not support the troop surge in Afghanistan. Hopefully, Obama's speech will bring those numbers down. But people like Michael Moore who seem to live in their little own fantasy world will probably never be convinced.

The anti-war push has almost always nearly exclusively come from liberals. Despite what happened on 9/11, 60% to 70% of Democrats oppose the Afghanistan war and oppose the troop surge. It will be interesting to see if Obama's speech put a dent in any of those poll numbers.

"Little San Francisco" is still unusually silent after this speech.
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Old 12-02-2009, 09:39 AM   #142
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"Little San Francisco" is still unusually silent after this speech.
Well, I think you mean your perception of "LSF" has been squashed.

Some of us understand the nuances and the gray areas between ideals and reality.
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Old 12-02-2009, 09:49 AM   #143
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...
I've watched for years as you've attempted to justify Bush's actions, to the extent now that when I see you've posted, I mostly just scroll right on past, because I know your arguments off by heart.

I could very easily counter argue everything that you just said, but it would be a waste of my time. I know what happened, and as time passes, the evidence piles up on the side of the Liberals, period. Now, Obama has to go and clean up another of Bush's messes. Same shit, different day.
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:06 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by VintagePunk View Post
I'm one of the leftiest of the lefties here and I wholeheartedly agree with what Obama is doing. In fact, during the campaign, I said that pulling out of Iraq too soon would be a huge mistake, that after Bush's fuck up by starting the misguided war in the first place, the US owes it to the Iraqi people not to pull out until security is restored - the Pottery Barn rule.

Now, Obama is doing what should have been done in the first place, by taking care of matters in Afghanistan, something that many liberals, myself included, and many nations, would have endorsed at the time. It's clearly what Bush should have done in the first place. Every time I see on the news that another Canadian soldier has been killed, which happens way too frequently, I curse Bush for his idiocy. If Bush had concentrated his efforts where he should have in the first place, it would be over by now, and most, if not all of the troops would be home.

So, to paint all Liberals with an anti-war brush is wrong. I don't think there are many that would dispute the need to go into Afghanistan, it's the trumped up reasons for going into Iraq that most take issue with.


you need to stop with your thoughtful, nuanced perspective that makes sweeping characterizations like "little San Francisco" impossible to sustain. the only way STING can talk about anything is if he constructs non-existent strawmen and imaginary opposition to his positions, as well as fabrications about what Obama has and has not said.

please, stop.
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:07 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Strongbow View Post
"Little San Francisco" is still unusually silent after this speech.


so, yes, you're really just a troll.
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:14 AM   #146
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you need to stop with your thoughtful, nuanced perspective that makes sweeping characterizations like "little San Francisco" impossible to sustain. the only way STING can talk about anything is if he constructs non-existent strawmen and imaginary opposition to his positions, as well as fabrications about what Obama has and has not said.

please, stop.
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:19 AM   #147
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san francisco is also a really awesome city and most people would kill to live there and it has a huge quality of life. so the slams seem kind of insane.

would you rather live in "little Topeka, KS"?
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:19 AM   #148
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you need to stop with your thoughtful, nuanced perspective that makes sweeping characterizations like "little San Francisco" impossible to sustain.
Maybe members of Little San Francisco have independently functioning brains and are able to think critically about events rather than being sheeple. This is an unfortunate by-product of liberal elitism, of course.
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:42 AM   #149
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Well, I think you mean your perception of "LSF" has been squashed.

Some of us understand the nuances and the gray areas between ideals and reality.
Not at all. Its just interesting to see that there is no reaction, either for, against, or undecided about the policy after such a big speech.
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:47 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by VintagePunk View Post
I've watched for years as you've attempted to justify Bush's actions, to the extent now that when I see you've posted, I mostly just scroll right on past, because I know your arguments off by heart.

I could very easily counter argue everything that you just said, but it would be a waste of my time. I know what happened, and as time passes, the evidence piles up on the side of the Liberals, period. Now, Obama has to go and clean up another of Bush's messes. Same shit, different day.
Well, I don't see any evidence that it would have been better to keep Saddam in power in Iraq, that Kuwait, Saudi Arabia would be safer today with Saddam in power, or that the Iraqi people would be better off with Saddam in power. If you want to argue for Saddam, go ahead, but the evidence continues to show that it was necessary to remove him from power for the security of the region and the world.
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:55 AM   #151
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you need to stop with your thoughtful, nuanced perspective that makes sweeping characterizations like "little San Francisco" impossible to sustain. the only way STING can talk about anything is if he constructs non-existent strawmen and imaginary opposition to his positions, as well as fabrications about what Obama has and has not said.

please, stop.
The only thing that is imaginary or frabricated here is your claims about people posting in this forum, their positions, as well as what Obama has actually said and not said.

The reference to San Francisco county is simply that it is probably the most liberal county in the country in terms of how the population there votes. Few would argue that FYM is not heavily liberal.
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:57 AM   #152
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so, yes, you're really just a troll.
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Old 12-02-2009, 11:03 AM   #153
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san francisco is also a really awesome city and most people would kill to live there and it has a huge quality of life. so the slams seem kind of insane.

would you rather live in "little Topeka, KS"?
Sorry, although you want to think its a "slam", its not. San Francisco County just has a very strong record of voting heavily in favor of Democratic candidates, perhaps the strongest of any county in the country. The comparison with FYM is that the level of support for Democratic political figures there seems similar to the level of support you find in this forum for Democratic political figures. Its just a comparison of the voting and not a slam on anything.
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Old 12-02-2009, 11:46 AM   #154
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Strongbow=troll?

ha ha.

Is not FYM= http://www.democraticunderground.com/

<>
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Old 12-02-2009, 05:25 PM   #155
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I'd like to see any evidence that the majority of "Little San Francisco" here was in favor of immediate withdrawal (regardless of the conditions) from Iraq or Afghanistan as you seem to imply, Sting.

Time to back up your strawmen.
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Old 12-02-2009, 05:55 PM   #156
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I don't think any such immediate withdrawal poll exists in SF ???
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Old 12-02-2009, 06:55 PM   #157
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i haven't commented on the Obama speech because i see no good options.

but i feel further convinced that America has neither the blood nor the treasure to give to sustain a permanent colonial presence in two middle eastern countries for the next 20 years. and i don't see how that would make us any safer, at all, from radical islamist terrorism.

and, yes, i continue to blame Bush for this.
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Old 12-02-2009, 08:13 PM   #158
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Not at all. Its just interesting to see that there is no reaction, either for, against, or undecided about the policy after such a big speech.
Are you expecting some post on Little San Francisco's website, or do you need to be reminded that you're literally talking about something that doesn't exist?
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Old 12-02-2009, 08:22 PM   #159
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Are you expecting some post on Little San Francisco's website, or do you need to be reminded that you're literally talking about something that doesn't exist?
If George W. had given the same speech committing 30K more soldiers, there would be plenty of talk here.

(Everyone had an opinion on the Iraq surge, after all)
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Old 12-02-2009, 09:13 PM   #160
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If George W. had given the same speech committing 30K more soldiers, there would be plenty of talk here.

(Everyone had an opinion on the Iraq surge, after all)
You have to be able to see the difference, you used to be able to do this...

One started it, the other is just trying to maintain or finish it.
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