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Old 06-22-2010, 09:28 PM   #921
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Originally Posted by U2387 View Post
Great post!

Its out there for those looking for it.

I know he has a bias, he's the Democratic Vice President, but I just finished Joe Biden's book today(I started it in Sept 2008, long story, but life has been difficult since then and I haven't got back around to it until recently). As the then- Chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the man has amazing insight and inside information that he shares regarding the situation in Afghanistan in 2001. He, Lugar(R-IN) and Hagel(R-NEB) continually pressed Bush for more troops and reconstruction money for Afghanistan in late 2001 and early 2002 only to be told "we're done, the Taliban is gone, no need for a commitment, if they come back, we'll just drain the swamp."

Well, that has just worked out great, hasn't it?

He chronicles very well, through recounting details of personal conversations with Colin Powell, just how deep the divide was between Powell and Cheney/Rumsfeld. Say what you want about Biden, but he was one of a few people in a position to see up close the inner workings of the Bush administration from a critical perspective when they were making the worst of their foreign policy decisions.
LOL, Biden was up there a fraction of the time that Powell and Gates were, both of whom, to this day, support the Presidents decisions to remove Saddam as well as surge troops in Iraq. Both have acknowledged mistakes, but certainly do not share Bidens current views on the major issues back then. Biden TODAY may think removing Saddam was a mistake(at the time he voted to remove him), but Bush, Blair, Powell, Gates, Rice, Cheney, and Rumsfeld still agree to this day that removing Saddam was the right course of action.


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Biden also warned Bush that if we don't commit to helping Karzai build a strong government now and live up to our promises the Afghan people, they will turn against us, as will Karzai in order to maintain public support. Well, that 2002 prediction turned out to be right on the mark! Karzai is obviously not a boy scout, but what governing prospect in Afghanistan would be? The anti US bullshit, the threats to join the Taliban, etc, are simply realpolitik and and come to us as a reaction to our abandonment of the entire country until very recently.

You don't have to support or oppose Obama's Afghan policy to see that Bush left him, like he did with so many other situations, a real, real mess.

Biden also says in his book that history will judge Bush harshly not because of mistakes he made(we all make those, if anyone knows that, its Joe himself, lol!!) but because of opportunities he missed.
There indeed were accomplishments under Bush in Afghanistan. The Taliban were removed from power. NATO launched its first joint military operation outside of Europe. By the time Obama became President there was a democratically elected Afghan government, an Afghan military, and over 20,000 non-US NATO troops in the country. Bush increased the number of US troops in Afghanistan every year that he was President. Afghanistan was never abandoned.

Afghanistan was handicapped by conditions in Pakistan that allowed the Taliban to take refuge and rebuild.
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Old 06-22-2010, 09:38 PM   #922
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iraq is vastly worse off today than it was in march 2003. how anyone can possibly argue otherwise is beyond me.
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Old 06-22-2010, 09:47 PM   #923
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Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza are NOT Israeli citizens. Israel has not annexed the West Bank and Gaza either.
Read the article again.

No one said they were Israeli citizens.

Israel has not annexed the West Bank and Gaza?


Let us know when you find a place called the real world.
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:40 PM   #924
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LOL, Biden was up there a fraction of the time that Powell and Gates were, both of whom, to this day, support the Presidents decisions to remove Saddam as well as surge troops in Iraq. Both have acknowledged mistakes, but certainly do not share Bidens current views on the major issues back then. Biden TODAY may think removing Saddam was a mistake(at the time he voted to remove him), but Bush, Blair, Powell, Gates, Rice, Cheney, and Rumsfeld still agree to this day that removing Saddam was the right course of action.




There indeed were accomplishments under Bush in Afghanistan. The Taliban were removed from power. NATO launched its first joint military operation outside of Europe. By the time Obama became President there was a democratically elected Afghan government, an Afghan military, and over 20,000 non-US NATO troops in the country. Bush increased the number of US troops in Afghanistan every year that he was President. Afghanistan was never abandoned.

Afghanistan was handicapped by conditions in Pakistan that allowed the Taliban to take refuge and rebuild.
Sting, Powell was against the invasion, he said so many times in private conversations, resigned in 2005 and then publicly endorsed Obama, an Iraq war opponent.

He opposed the war: Powell tried to talk Bush out of war - Times Online

He opposed the surge:

Powell: We Are Losing In Iraq - Face The Nation - CBS News

And the Taliban in Afghanistan are back and back very strong, so obviously the initial policy and the entire Bush policy was inadequate:

2007:Taliban control half of Afghanistan, says report - Telegraph

2009:Taliban Control Spreads in Afghanistan | News | English

And Bush had nowhere near enough focus and priority on Afghanistan during his Presidency:

War in Afghanistan: US Redirection of Forces to Iraq

And Iraq is nowhere near as rosy as you say it was:

Nation & World | Surge in Iraq violence leaves at least 27 dead | Seattle Times Newspaper

And Biden said he made a mistake in voting for a resolution that Bush asked for in bad faith and did not even abide by the terms of.

The resolution said Iraq had WMD, and we would forcibly remove said WMD should he fail to let the inspectors verify everything.

So anyone who voted for the resolution shouldn't even apologize, it was Bush who lied about the weapons and pulled out the inspectors that he promised to let do their work.

Eithe way, Biden admits a small mistake in trusting Bush, Bush can't bring himself to admit a COLOSSAL MISTAKE

Besides, Biden offered a separate resolution that narrowed the mission from regime change(which has produced chaos) to verifying that no WMD were present and made clear that all options were to be exhausted.

Don't come back with your Clinton video, that was 1998, before inspectors gave Iraq a clean bill of health in 1999. Clinton wanted to make sure they were verifiably done with the WMD program, and he did. Things changed, the situation was not the same in 1998 as it was in 2003. 1999-2003, Saddam had no weapons and guess what, Sting? The FACTS have proven this to be the case.

Saddam never had a nuclear weapon, and had chemical and biological weapons that were comprehensively destroyed starting in 1991. He never posed an imminent threat, or any kind of threat, to the United States. Also a fact.
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:53 PM   #925
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Just go with the drones, airstrikes eh? Guess what, there was a time when this was indeed US policy in Afganistan. It was during the Clinton administration back in August 1998 and unfortunately remained US policy until September 11, 2001!

We did not have that little thing called 9/11 when Clinton was in office. Even the airstrikes and drones and other actions aimed at AQ were ridiculed by the GOP when Clinton employed them.

There would have been no public or political support for an invasion before 9.11.


But Clinton did not sit on his hands:

He tripled counterterrorism funding over the objection of the GOP congress, stopped many plots in their tracks(millenium, bojinka) and put 2 loaded naval aircraft carriers in the Indian Ocean aimed at Afghanistan. He then called up the Taliban and told them who would be held responsible for an attack. Then Bush recalled said carriers.


Clinton told the Bush team AQ was threat #1, Condi had never heard of them and Wolfowitz laughed in his face.



DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK ANYONE IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION WOULD HAVE INVADED AFGHANISTAN BEFORE 9/11?

He ignored numerous warnings specific to 9/11 and ignored AQ in general for 8 months.



Apples and oranges to say Bush invaded like a man and Clinton did drones like a sissy.

ONE WAS PRESIDENT BEFORE THE 1ST ATTACK ON OUR HOMELAND SINCE PEARL HARBOR AND ONE AFTER.

Please, Clinton or any President or Dennis Kucinich would have invaded Afghanistan after 9/11.

Edit: sorry to anyone who read this post before I edited it.

Thank you, Deep and Irvine for catching me.

You guys are smart, you guys were right, and thank you!!
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:07 PM   #926
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you realize that you just gave him exactly what he wants?
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:18 PM   #927
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you realize that you just gave him exactly what he wants?
Thank you and see edit.
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:25 AM   #928
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iraq is vastly worse off today than it was in march 2003. how anyone can possibly argue otherwise is beyond me.
No, no, no. You must never say that! Don't you know what will happen? And if "someone" decides to argue otherwise with you--trust me, just let it go! Quickest way to derail a thread I'm telling you!
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Old 06-23-2010, 10:47 AM   #929
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Ditto that. Please. Or I will cry.
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Old 06-23-2010, 10:49 AM   #930
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No, no, no. You must never say that! Don't you know what will happen? And if "someone" decides to argue otherwise with you--trust me, just let it go! Quickest way to derail a thread I'm telling you!
if someone decides to reply they'll be writing a novel that i won't bother to read.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:18 AM   #931
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McChrystal needs to go.

The honourable thing to do would be to resign.

Hopefully Obama has the cohones to fire his ass.
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:03 PM   #932
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iraq is vastly worse off today than it was in march 2003. how anyone can possibly argue otherwise is beyond me.
Well, what is your assumption based on? Have you accurately considered what life was like for Iraqi Kurds and Shia's under Saddam? Random bombings are one thing, having 5,000 men, women and children in one day experience the deadly effects of Sarin gas is another. Having food and basic medical supplies withheld from your community is a common experience of most Iraqi's who were not apart of certain Sunni tribes while Saddam is in power.
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:07 PM   #933
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Read the article again.

No one said they were Israeli citizens.

Israel has not annexed the West Bank and Gaza?


Let us know when you find a place called the real world.
In the REAL WORLD, occupation is NOT ANNEXATION. If Israel had annexed the West Bank and Gaza, they would be apart of Israel and Israel would not be discussing returning such area's to anyone.
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:37 PM   #934
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Sting, Powell was against the invasion, he said so many times in private conversations, resigned in 2005 and then publicly endorsed Obama, an Iraq war opponent.

He opposed the war: Powell tried to talk Bush out of war - Times Online
None of that shows that he was against the removal of Saddam in 2003 with US forces. Powell says SPECIFICALLY in the Barbara Walters show in 2005 that he supported the Presidents decision to remove SADDAM. To qoute Powell, "when the President said it was not tolerable for Saddam to remain in violation of these UN resolutions, I am right there with him on the use of force!"

Powell was the one who got the Bush administration to go back to the United Nations for resolution 1441 that was not technically needed to authorize the invasion. He disputed the contention of others that resolution 1441 did not authorize the use of military force.

Another famous qoute by Powell in 2002:

"It is not incumbent on the United States to prove that Iraq has Weapons of Mass Destruction, it is incumbant on Iraq to prove that they don't."

Powell has also been against any form of pre-mature withdrawal. He stated in the Barbara Walters interview in 2005 that the United States needed to stay the course in Iraq and develop the countries government, military forces and economy.

Quote:
He opposed the surge:

Powell: We Are Losing In Iraq - Face The Nation - CBS News
He never advocated a pre-mature withdrawal, but in any event, history has shown any opponents of the Surge to have been flat out wrong about the impact it would have on the situation in the country.


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And Bush had nowhere near enough focus and priority on Afghanistan during his Presidency:

War in Afghanistan: US Redirection of Forces to Iraq

The invasion of Iraq was spearheaded by heavy armor units that have not been used in Afghanistan to date. You can't be claiming the President was not focused on Afghanistan because a tank division that would be unlikely to be sent to Afghanistan was used to invade Iraq.

The US used a total of 11 brigades to invade Iraq and a two brigades on the ground in Afghanistan at the time.

But the USA still had a total of 30 Active Army and Marine brigades back in the USA, Germany, Japan, and South Korea.

In addition, there were 38 National Guard Combat Brigades that were not being used at all back in the United States.


So the idea that the President underresourced Afghanistan to invade Iraq in 2003 is flat out FALSE!


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The resolution said Iraq had WMD, and we would forcibly remove said WMD should he fail to let the inspectors verify everything.

So anyone who voted for the resolution shouldn't even apologize, it was Bush who lied about the weapons and pulled out the inspectors that he promised to let do their work.
Saddam failed to verifiably account for a long list of WMD items while the inspectors were in country. It was also found out after the war that he hid production related WMD facilities that were in violation of multiple UN resolutions and the 1991 Gulf War Ceacefire agreement.

At no time in 2003 was Saddam EVER in compliance with ANY of the 17 UN Security Council resolutions passed under Chapter VII rules of the United Nations.

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Eithe way, Biden admits a small mistake in trusting Bush, Bush can't bring himself to admit a COLOSSAL MISTAKE
The COLOSSAL MISTAKE would have been to leave Saddam in power. But please, if you have logical explanation that leaving someone, with Saddam's behavior and history, in power in Iraq would be best for the security of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, the persian gulf region, and the world, lets here it. I don't see too many arguments these days defending Saddam as a source of peace and stability for the Persian Gulf.

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Don't come back with your Clinton video, that was 1998, before inspectors gave Iraq a clean bill of health in 1999. Clinton wanted to make sure they were verifiably done with the WMD program, and he did. Things changed, the situation was not the same in 1998 as it was in 2003. 1999-2003, Saddam had no weapons and guess what, Sting? The FACTS have proven this to be the case.
INSPECTORS NEVER GAVE IRAQ A CLEAN BILL OF HEALTH! THERE WERE NO INSPECTORS EVEN ON THE GROUND IN IRAQ IN 1999!

This is basic factual history.

Clinton bombed Iraq in 1998 precisely because Iraq was NOT complying with requirements of the 1991 Gulf War ceacefire.

1. The fact that no WMD weapons were found in Iraq after Saddam was removed does not prove that were NONE in the country before the US invaded.

2. It does not change the fact that WMD production related facilities that were in violation of the UN resolutions were found in the country after Saddam was removed!

3. Saddam remained in violation of 17 UN security council resolutions from 1999 until the US invaded and removed Saddam.

4.Most importantly, the key means of containment, Sanctions and the Weapons embargo, had fallen apart by 2002. Its impossible to contain Saddam without them. Every day that would go by without effective sanctions and weapons embargo regime would allow Saddam to rebuild both his conventional and unconventional military forces. The inability to effectively contain Saddam meant that the only option left was regime change.

5. Both Bill and Hillary Clinton supported the invasion of Iraq to remove Saddam in 2003!

I also do not recall Biden in March 2003 saying that Bush had violated his own resolution on Iraq. There was nothing dissenting from Biden at all in March 2003.



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Saddam never had a nuclear weapon, and had chemical and biological weapons that were comprehensively destroyed starting in 1991. He never posed an imminent threat, or any kind of threat, to the United States. Also a fact.
No one ever said that Saddam had a nuclear weapon! The whole point of containing Saddam was to prevent from rebuilding his military or obtaining new WMD or even worse a nuclear weapon! Its about PREVENTION and not waiting for a leader to get such weapons that could be used against any invasion force.

But again, without containment which involves an effective Sanctions and Weapons embargo regime, containment cannot work. The only other option besides containment was regime change.



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chemical and biological weapons that were comprehensively destroyed starting in 1991
If that were clearly the case, the UN inspectors would not have been so extensively involved in Iraq, year after year AFTER 1991. In 2003, Saddam had still failed to account for thousands of stocks of WMD. IT IS A THEORY, NOT A PROVEN FACT, THAT SOME OF THOSE STOCKS WERE DESTROYED WITHOUT VERIFICATION IN 1991.



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or any kind of threat, to the United States. Also a fact.
If this had any truth to it at all, the United States would have NEVER gone to WAR with Iraq in 1991, bombed Iraq year after year, or attempt to put Iraq under the most extensive sanctions and weapons embargo regime in history!

Can you name another country on the planet in 2003 that was in violation of 17 UN Security Council Resolutions passed under chapter VII rules of the United Nations?
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:46 PM   #935
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if someone decides to reply they'll be writing a novel that i won't bother to read.
:chuckle: Ah, so you DO know.

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McChrystal needs to go.

The honourable thing to do would be to resign.

Hopefully Obama has the cohones to fire his ass.
I happened to glance at a TV in the bar of a restuarant I just had lunch at, and I thought the it said that Petraeus would be replacing McChrystal.

During same lunch I read Joe Klein's analysis in Time magazine of the situation in Afghanistan and to be honest it sounds pretty damn near impossible to resolve. I think the most we should be seeking to accomplish there is to make sure that Al-Quaeda won't be able to comfortably organize and train there. I think we're going to have to let the nation-building go, as sad as that is for Afghanistan.
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:18 PM   #936
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We did not have that little thing called 9/11 when Clinton was in office. Even the airstrikes and drones and other actions aimed at AQ were ridiculed by the GOP when Clinton employed them.

There would have been no public or political support for an invasion before 9.11.


!
Oh yes, hundreds of people being killed at the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania is no big thing right? Its better to wait until they have killed thousands of American citizens on US soil before you take some sort of effective action?

The idea is to PREVENT such an invent from happening in the first place and means employed by the President at the time were not effective and certainly would not be effective now.
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:22 PM   #937
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He tripled counterterrorism funding over the objection of the GOP congress, stopped many plots in their tracks(millenium, bojinka) and put 2 loaded naval aircraft carriers in the Indian Ocean aimed at Afghanistan. He then called up the Taliban and told them who would be held responsible for an attack. Then Bush recalled said carriers.


Clinton told the Bush team AQ was threat #1, Condi had never heard of them and Wolfowitz laughed in his face.



DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK ANYONE IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION WOULD HAVE INVADED AFGHANISTAN BEFORE 9/11?

He ignored numerous warnings specific to 9/11 and ignored AQ in general for 8 months.
This all misses the point that simply using Airstrikes, the CIA, and other more limited forms of counterterrorism by Clinton and Bush up through 9/11WAS NOT EFFECTIVE AND WOULD NOT BE TODAY!
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:24 PM   #938
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STRONGBOW, read the title of the thread.

U2387, IGNORE HIM!
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:25 PM   #939
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if someone decides to reply they'll be writing a novel that i won't bother to read.
Why even post here if your unwilling to read other opinions that may disagree with your own?
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:32 PM   #940
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:chuckle: Ah, so you DO know.



I happened to glance at a TV in the bar of a restuarant I just had lunch at, and I thought the it said that Petraeus would be replacing McChrystal.

During same lunch I read Joe Klein's analysis in Time magazine of the situation in Afghanistan and to be honest it sounds pretty damn near impossible to resolve. I think the most we should be seeking to accomplish there is to make sure that Al-Quaeda won't be able to comfortably organize and train there. I think we're going to have to let the nation-building go, as sad as that is for Afghanistan.
Joe Klein, LOL, certainly not an unbiased source.

The only way to make sure that Al Quada cannot ever again organize and train in Afghanistan the way they did prior to 2001 is to develop an Afghan government and security forces to a level where they can protect the country and help prevent such a situation without the need of help from large numbers of foreign ground troops.

Abandoning Afghanistan and relying on air-power and other forms of counterterrorism is a return to the policies of the 1990s that got the world into this situation in the first place.
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