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Old 06-22-2010, 03:01 PM   #901
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I'll go through that article more thoroughly soon, too, MrsSpringsteen. I've heard a bit about the flak the general's been taking for a comment in there, so now I'm really curious to read the full story.

I like that bit about Obama and his steps to help make fatherhood more of a priority. That's really nice . Some excellent ideas in there, too. I know his work has taken time away from his daughters, and I really feel for him and his family in regards to that. But from what I've observed, they seem to be growing up wonderfully, and it's obvious he loves them dearly, so I'd say he's doing fine.

Angela
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Old 06-22-2010, 03:32 PM   #902
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An open letter from actor Jon Voight to President Obama:

June 22, 2010

Dear President Obama:

You will be the first American president that lied to the Jewish people, and the American people as well, when you said that you would defend Israel, the only Democratic state in the Middle East, against all their enemies. You have done just the opposite. You have propagandized Israel, until they look like they are everyone's enemy - and it has resonated throughout the world. You are putting Israel in harm's way, and you have promoted anti-Semitism throughout the world.

You have brought this to a people who have given the world the Ten Commandments and most laws we live by today. The Jewish people have given the world our greatest scientist and philosophers, and the cures for many diseases, and now you play a very dangerous game so you can look like a true martyr to what you see and say are the underdogs. But the underdogs you defend are murderers and criminals and want Israel eradicated.

You have brought to Arizona a civil war, once again defending the criminals and illegals, creating a meltdown for good, loyal, law-abiding citizens. Your destruction of this country may never be remedied, and we may never recover. I pray to God you stop, and I hope the people in this great country realize your agenda is not for the betterment of mankind, but for the betterment of your politics.

With heartfelt and deep concern for America and Israel,

Jon Voight
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Old 06-22-2010, 03:42 PM   #903
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and you have promoted anti-Semitism throughout the world.
Yep, that's right, it's all Obama's fault. 'Cause we all know that anti-Semitism never existed, not until he came along.

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You have brought to Arizona a civil war
He's not the one who came up with the law. There was no "civil war" until that law was enacted, and that wasn't Obama's doing.

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I pray to God you stop
Funny, I could say the same thing to you, Mr. Voight.

I don't get some people. I really, truly don't.

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Old 06-22-2010, 03:43 PM   #904
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Dear Jon Voight,

Stick to acting and being a shitty father.

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Old 06-22-2010, 03:52 PM   #905
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An open letter from actor Jon Voight to President Obama:

June 22, 2010

Dear President Obama:

You will be the first American president that lied to the Jewish people, and the American people as well, when you said that you would defend Israel, the only Democratic state in the Middle East, against all their enemies. You have done just the opposite. You have propagandized Israel, until they look like they are everyone's enemy - and it has resonated throughout the world. You are putting Israel in harm's way, and you have promoted anti-Semitism throughout the world.

You have brought this to a people who have given the world the Ten Commandments and most laws we live by today. The Jewish people have given the world our greatest scientist and philosophers, and the cures for many diseases, and now you play a very dangerous game so you can look like a true martyr to what you see and say are the underdogs. But the underdogs you defend are murderers and criminals and want Israel eradicated.

You have brought to Arizona a civil war, once again defending the criminals and illegals, creating a meltdown for good, loyal, law-abiding citizens. Your destruction of this country may never be remedied, and we may never recover. I pray to God you stop, and I hope the people in this great country realize your agenda is not for the betterment of mankind, but for the betterment of your politics.

With heartfelt and deep concern for America and Israel,

Jon Voight
One of the stupidest things I have ever read.

Israel is doing a good job of propagandizing themselves with their actions.

Obama is just the 1st President in a while with some small amount of balls(he still heavily favors Israel, and ok by me to some extent, they are an ally) to tell them they are not always right. When Israel is an obstacle to the solution to a problem we have dealt with for decades, then Obama has not been afraid to say so.

Israel is not a democracy by any objective standard when 3 of 9 million can not vote: Media Lens :: View topic - Neve Gordon | The only democracy in the Middle East? 03Feb04

I am not familiar with this author so I can not endorse all of his views, nor can I say that I even agree with him on most things, but the claims he made here have not been debunked in any credible place.

As for Arizona, please. I have never seen such a brain dead uproar from both the right and the left over a law that is being used for politics only by both sides. De facto, it changes nothing in Arizona with regards to dealing with illegals.
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Old 06-22-2010, 04:39 PM   #906
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It seems like the situation in Afghanistan has been overshadowed by the spill, and Arizona before that, and health care before that.

Too bad it takes something like this to get the war back in the news.
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Old 06-22-2010, 04:58 PM   #907
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^ agreed.

we've been there for almost 10 years. beginning to think we should just cut out losses and continue to send in the drones.

what Bush hath wrought ...
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Old 06-22-2010, 05:16 PM   #908
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It seems like the situation in Afghanistan has been overshadowed by the spill, and Arizona before that, and health care before that.

Too bad it takes something like this to get the war back in the news.
Yep, it's important to continually show the world exactly how unprepared Bush really was.

I like that you and I are agreeing as of late.
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Old 06-22-2010, 05:27 PM   #909
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It seems like the situation in Afghanistan has been overshadowed by the spill, and Arizona before that, and health care before that.

Too bad it takes something like this to get the war back in the news.
really

it is on my radar everyday

I read a newspaper, everyday, at least one, watch a couple of news programs and listen to different ones on the radio

Afghanistan, Iraq, Kyrgyzstan, Iran, Pakistan, Gaza, Israel, etc are reported on everyday.

The question really is do people have the ability to digest the information that is out there,
or are they only capable of discussing 2-3 things at a time?

Afghanistan and Iraq are in bad shape because the Bush Administration never set them up in a way that they would succeed. Iraq it just terrible, it is worse off now, in terms of quality of life for the Iraqi people, then before the U S invasion and occupation.
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Old 06-22-2010, 05:47 PM   #910
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Iraq it just terrible, it is worse off now, in terms of quality of life for the Iraqi people, then before the U S invasion and occupation.

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Old 06-22-2010, 07:22 PM   #911
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really

it is on my radar everyday

I read a newspaper, everyday, at least one, watch a couple of news programs and listen to different ones on the radio

Afghanistan, Iraq, Kyrgyzstan, Iran, Pakistan, Gaza, Israel, etc are reported on everyday.

The question really is do people have the ability to digest the information that is out there,
or are they only capable of discussing 2-3 things at a time?

Afghanistan and Iraq are in bad shape because the Bush Administration never set them up in a way that they would succeed. Iraq it just terrible, it is worse off now, in terms of quality of life for the Iraqi people, then before the U S invasion and occupation.
Great post!

Its out there for those looking for it.

I know he has a bias, he's the Democratic Vice President, but I just finished Joe Biden's book today(I started it in Sept 2008, long story, but life has been difficult since then and I haven't got back around to it until recently). As the then- Chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the man has amazing insight and inside information that he shares regarding the situation in Afghanistan in 2001. He, Lugar(R-IN) and Hagel(R-NEB) continually pressed Bush for more troops and reconstruction money for Afghanistan in late 2001 and early 2002 only to be told "we're done, the Taliban is gone, no need for a commitment, if they come back, we'll just drain the swamp."

Well, that has just worked out great, hasn't it?

He chronicles very well, through recounting details of personal conversations with Colin Powell, just how deep the divide was between Powell and Cheney/Rumsfeld. Say what you want about Biden, but he was one of a few people in a position to see up close the inner workings of the Bush administration from a critical perspective when they were making the worst of their foreign policy decisions.

Biden also warned Bush that if we don't commit to helping Karzai build a strong government now and live up to our promises the Afghan people, they will turn against us, as will Karzai in order to maintain public support. Well, that 2002 prediction turned out to be right on the mark! Karzai is obviously not a boy scout, but what governing prospect in Afghanistan would be? The anti US bullshit, the threats to join the Taliban, etc, are simply realpolitik and and come to us as a reaction to our abandonment of the entire country until very recently.

You don't have to support or oppose Obama's Afghan policy to see that Bush left him, like he did with so many other situations, a real, real mess.

Biden also says in his book that history will judge Bush harshly not because of mistakes he made(we all make those, if anyone knows that, its Joe himself, lol!!) but because of opportunities he missed.
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Old 06-22-2010, 07:40 PM   #912
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Yeah, it's pretty obvious that proper management and something resembling a PLAN were totally absent from Afghanistan (and Iraq as well). I fully agree, we should keep hounding on about this problem more often, I'd be very interested in hearing what's going on lately in that country and how the war effort's doing.

It's been long enough. It's really time to just let everyone come home now. Right now. That's my personal feeling.

Angela
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Old 06-22-2010, 07:53 PM   #913
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It's been long enough. It's really time to just let everyone come home now. Right now. That's my personal feeling.

Angela

Yes, it has gone on for far too long and there is no direction right now on what to do there. But just pulling out, IMO, seems to be a bad idea. There's a chance the Taliban would return to power in Afghanistan if we pull out. It would be just like in the 1980s when the U.S. ignored the country after its war with the Soviet Union, setting the stage for the Taliban to seize power.
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Old 06-22-2010, 08:14 PM   #914
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Israel is not a democracy by any objective standard when 3 of 9 million can not vote: Media Lens :: View topic - Neve Gordon | The only democracy in the Middle East? 03Feb04
Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza are NOT Israeli citizens. Israel has not annexed the West Bank and Gaza either.
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Old 06-22-2010, 08:29 PM   #915
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^ agreed.

we've been there for almost 10 years. beginning to think we should just cut out losses and continue to send in the drones.

what Bush hath wrought ...
Just go with the drones, airstrikes eh? Guess what, there was a time when this was indeed US policy in Afganistan. It was during the Clinton administration back in August 1998 and unfortunately remained US policy until September 11, 2001!
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Old 06-22-2010, 08:31 PM   #916
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Yep, it's important to continually show the world exactly how unprepared Bush really was.

I like that you and I are agreeing as of late.
Unlike Bill Clinton, Bush removed the Taliban from power and started policies in combating terrorism that have been far more successful than anything done during the Clinton administration.
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Old 06-22-2010, 08:41 PM   #917
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He just walked into that one, didn't he!
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Old 06-22-2010, 08:46 PM   #918
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Unlike Bill Clinton, Bush removed the Taliban from power and started policies in combating terrorism that have been far more successful than anything done during the Clinton administration.
Blah, blah, blah...

It still doesn't erase the fact that the administration was not prepared for the two wars... We wouldn't be in the position we are if we were.
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Old 06-22-2010, 08:55 PM   #919
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Afghanistan and Iraq are in bad shape because the Bush Administration never set them up in a way that they would succeed. Iraq it just terrible, it is worse off now, in terms of quality of life for the Iraqi people, then before the U S invasion and occupation.
The Standard of living in Iraq today based on known data for education, life expectancy, and GDP per capita from the United Nations Human Development Report and the CIA World Fact Book, gives Iraq a current standard of living ahead of a country like Morocco and soon to pass countries like Egypt and Syria.

Over the past year in Iraq, the murder rate in Iraq has at times been lower than the murder rate in the United States.

Iraq today has the opportunity to finally grow into the prosperous country it could have been, if Saddam had not been the ruler of the country for 24 years during which he invaded and attacked unprovoked four different countries, used WMD more than any other leader in history, which lead to millions of dead and wounded, slaughtered, tortured, and murdered all the serious active opposition to his rule as well as those simply suspected of opposition.

Yes, there are not as many of the random bombings that you have today thanks to a massive state security organization that randomly imprisoned, tortured, and murdered the population as well as members of the government and military that Saddam would suddenly decide needed to go.

Yes, there was electricity, running water, plenty of food, all day every day, that is if you lived in Sunni tribal area's important to Saddam's power base. Life was far different in Kurdish or Shia majority area's as well as for Sunni's not apart of Saddam's power base.

While Iraqi's do not like the conditions that currently prevail today despite improvements in past years, the vast majority of Iraqi's NEVER want to return to the reign of terror and hell that was life under Saddam. Those that do are typically the minority that did benefit to a degree from life under Saddam.
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Old 06-22-2010, 09:10 PM   #920
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Blah, blah, blah...


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It still doesn't erase the fact that the administration was not prepared for the two wars... We wouldn't be in the position we are if we were.
Mistakes have been made in both conflicts that have made them more difficult. But there are definitely no short cuts around the difficulty involved in building a relatively stable country with a security structure strong enough that foreign military forces are no longer needed in the country to help provide security. Mistake free nation building plans would still involve years of what has been seen already.
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