nuke iraq till they bleed american

[Flag Pole Pear]

Flag Pole Pear,

universal owns interscope? It sure does.

huh, funny that. i always thought the two were seperate.

universal must be HUUGE.

 

[hiphop]

HIPHOP,

"To me you sound like an inexperienced colony official, who hasn?t learned how to deal with power yet"

"criminal president"

Come on now, your a lot smarter, respectful, and objective than these statements suggest.

Hmmmmmmm

Thank you. Its my pleasure to discuss with you. Sometimes, I must admit though, you just sound as if you?ve ripped out your own heart.

Nice quotes. You picked out the best, and the most interesting ones, like always.

 

[melon]

universal must be HUUGE.

Yes, and Universal is owned by Vivendi, a large French media conglomerate.

Things just get bigger and bigger!

Melon

 

[STING2]

HIPHOP,

Wrong! I never once said the word stupid! The suffer from a lack of opportunity and information because of dictatorships and poverty. It is not their fault as individuals.

As for the democracy's and people in them I DISPUTE SOME OF THEIR CONCLUSIONS, not their intelligence!

Please calm down, before you accuse me again of saying or implying something that I clearly did not.

 

[hiphop]

HIPHOP,

Wrong! I never once said the word stupid! The suffer from a lack of opportunity and information because of dictatorships and poverty. It is not their fault as individuals.

As for the democracy's and people in them I DISPUTE SOME OF THEIR CONCLUSIONS, not their intelligence!

Please calm down, before you accuse me again of saying or implying something that I clearly did not.

I?m just reacting on your tone which displays your concept, officer

How can you say those people are not right when they think....(insert repetition here)? Because they have less education? Education doesn?t count here.

Say, you are on the street watching a scene: You see a mother who gives an apple to her child. The child just wants to bite the apple. This moment, a man comes, rips the apple away from the childs hands and goes off to put it into his car full of apples. The child doesn?t really need an A level to see whats wrong, y know.

You want to say, its not their fault if they?re wrong, I say, sure, it wouldn?t be their fault if they were wrong, but actually they?re right.

 

[hiphop]

Yes, and Universal is owned by Vivendi, a large French media conglomerate.

Things just get bigger and bigger!

Melon

You could actually quarrel if Vivendi or Universal is the more powerful part of this conglomerate. And all those mergers happened because of Clinton!

 

[Dreadsox]

I?m just reacting on your tone which displays your concept, officer

And last night when you implied I was a racist that was a reaction to what?

You have shown quite a bit of contempt yourself. Putting words in peoples mouths and twisting what they say.


Peace

 

[melon]

You could actually quarrel if Vivendi or Universal is bigger. And all that mergers happened because of Clinton!

Actually, Universal was owned by Seagram, which (I believe) was Canadian. I don't know if that is right, but I know Seagram wasn't an American company. Vivendi is French.

How would Clinton have been able to interfere with a foreign merger?

Melon

 

[hiphop]

And last night when you implied I was a racist that was a reaction to what?

You have shown quite a bit of contempt yourself. Putting words in peoples mouths and twisting what they say.


Peace

Okey. If two people tell that to me, I may have exaggerated. I neither know when I?ve implied you were a racist, but if you say so, I trust you, you don?t have to prove it.

Peace.

 

[STING2]

HIPHOP,

I try not to put words in your mouth, please try to avoid doing the same to me.

When your ability to learn about the outside world is contained and obstructed as it is in a dictatorship, its difficult to get a realistic view of what is going on elsewhere. Its often not possible to speak their mind, especially when the dictators have a gun to your head.

You can believe that your views and theirs about American Foreign Policy are correct. I respect that. But I have a different point view and so do many other people.

 

[anitram]

You can believe that your views and theirs about American Foreign Policy are correct. I respect that. But I have a different point view and so do many other people.

How about all those in Western Europe, or, say, even closer, in Canada? Are they suffering under a dictatorship?

 

[Dreadsox]

How about all those in Western Europe, or, say, even closer, in Canada? Are they suffering under a dictatorship?

Canada...they are not supporting us? Interesting.

Western Europe? All of Western Europe? Or France and Germany?

Nah...no dictatorship there....Just a lot of greed. But that couldn't cloud their judgement now could it?

Food for oil benefits...hmmmmmmm

 

[MiniFly]

In addition, Iraq with the exception of Saudi Arabia, has the world largest oil reserves on the planet. This level of natural resource wealth is not something Germany or Japan had to draw on themselves. Ever "economic potential" study that has been done on Iraq since the 1970s has found that Iraq should be the wealthiest country in the region do to its natural resources which include the energy that can be derived from its rivers as well as its oil.

Iraq also has the greatest potential to be exploited economically by yet another American puppet government. The reason it's not the most wealthy country in the region is because of faulty leadership and domination of their recources by western countries. Germany and Japan were not economically exploitable because they had no vast native resources. These two countries did not require the socio-political revamping Iraq will need. Japan wasn't changed very much at all socially, and Germany was exploited politically. However, West Germany adopted a western style Federal Constitution soon after the war.

Another factor though is the obvious effort that the USA can put into nation building that midigate the problems that Iraq faces in being a third world country. ... Economic development and politcal development of Iraq will happen as long as the necessary resources are invested to achieve those goals. The difficulties of building a new Iraq are not as bad as the difficulties and possibilities of a Saddam controlled Iraq armed in the future with nuclear weapons.

American domination of Iraq will not produce economic vitality for the country. It didn't happen while Saddam was a puppet, and the cycle will continue on. The difficulties of building a new Iraq should be left to the Iraqi people. Whether it takes years or generations, the Iraqis should be the people who decide on their government. America had a whole revolution about not being able to choose their government. This is a fairly similar situation.

There are a lot of things Saddam is planning to do in the future, and he already has weapons that Germany and Japan never had. He is also in close proximity to most of the worlds energy supplies and does not need multi-continental aggression capability to threaten the world.

I didn't mean that Saddam wasn't as much of a threat as Japan or Germany or bring up nuclear weapons. I used that example to further differentiate the examples. However, I still don't believe Iraq has WoMD.

Here at Free Your Mind, we try to remain objective and respectful of other peoples points of view. Characterizing me or my arguements as fallacy-ridden or absurd does not make it so and does nothing to prove or advance your own view points. Just like making and unbased claim that I am "ignorant of history", it is unnecessary in not in the spirit of this forum.

I'm sorry if my words were construed as personal attacks and I will avoid using such vocabulary again.

 

[melon]

Considering that war is an inevitability out of our control, I will be curious how the Iraqi people respond after Saddam is deposed.

Melon

 

[hiphop]

You know, STING2, this thread was about the nuclear options, but there are a row of other topics too, like "the average American consumer". You asked me to explain how you were betrayed. I therefore must have implied you were an average American consumer - which you are, maybe. Most average American consumers don?t have a family members who are part of 1% (to me, it seems the financial "elite" is more in the direction of 0,001%, but thats another story, and we don?t really need to discuss about that).

Some questions or arguments I posted remained unanswered. You can decide to look through this thread again, but you don?t have to waste your time either, we know each others views. The only topic where I actually realized your reaction on my post, was when you told me of that personal remark I made to provoke you a little.

I am happy, though, that you displayed a reaction. It showed me that you read my posts, at the very least.

As to your views, often contradicting mine: be assured that, even if we are not the same opinion, and therefore I don?t respect your opinion, I respect you as a person. I don?t think you really respect my opinion on American Foreign Policy, but I think you respect me personally, too.

Sometimes, though, we are going off the path that the Sermon of the Mount has shown us.

And now excuse me, I am just joking with a wonderful child.

 

[anitram]

Canada...they are not supporting us? Interesting.

Western Europe? All of Western Europe? Or France and Germany?

Nah...no dictatorship there....Just a lot of greed. But that couldn't cloud their judgement now could it?

Food for oil benefits...hmmmmmmm

You must have misread my post. I didn't say Canada, I said "all those", meaning a substantial proportion of Canadian population. Like the 80%+ who in a poll, a couple of months ago (by the CBC, I believe) stated they believe the US is either completely or partially responsible for 9/11. Says something, doesn't it? And I also never said all of western Europe, I said "all those in Western Europe", meaning all those who disagree wtih the current policy. I'm not sure why that's so confusing.

And if we're talking about capitalistic greed, well, then I hardly think Europe's got the monopoly.

 

[Blacksword]

Blacksword,

The USA engaged in a policy of containment and occasionally rollback of Soviet supported states for the sake of long term global security. I'm not going to justify every single tatical situation, but certainly the strategic goal was justified and saved much of the world from Global domination by the Soviets and or World War III.

The USA has certainly helped several dictators in the past that killed many of their own people, but there were more important priorities that demanded this course of action. Your not going tell me that the USA should not have sent Billions of tons of supplies to Stalins Soviet Union are you?


"Do you seriously think much of the world hates the US and considers it an imperialist nation out of envy and self-delusion?"

Yes I do. Much of this world you speak of live in countries that are dictatorships or in poverty without access to education. Certainly many in democratic countries may have this view, but from what I have studied and learned over the years, I strongly dispute such claims.

Guatemala had no ties to the Soviets, its government was democratic, its press free. True it did allow a communist party to organize, but in a free country there's nothing wrong with that It was only in the US and to a lesser extent the rest of the NATO alliance that comunism and socialism were rather ignorantly clumped in with their mutant totalitarian offshoot Bolshevism. The supposed reason for the US backed invasion was a shipment iof Chzek small arms that Guatemala had to buy since the US wouldn't sell arms to Guatemala. And in case you say the president was corrupt, well amongst the land to be redistrubted was several thousand acres of his own.

Chile was Democratic until Nixon decided its president Allende was a communist even though he vocally opposed any kind of violent uprising to force socialist changes. The US cut off all civilian aid to Chile, cut off all forign loans and illegally engineered an artificial collapse in the international price of copper (Chile's main export). All of which cause Chile's economy to nearly collapse and cause food shortages which lead to riots. The US then dumped millions into military aid tripling this and giving covert aid to any plots against Allende through the CIA. Don't believe me much of this was dug up by on Church comission in the late seventies which investiged teh matter. As we all know there was a military coup which put Pinochet on top. The Nixon government immediately nomalized relations and restored economic aid. All this was because Allende nationalized industry forcing out US corperations and was planning land redistibution. Chile had been democratic for decades up until 1972, and the military hadn't taken a role in politics for that time.

I could go on but I hope you'll get my point. These were not communist nations. There was never any communist conspiracies anywhere in Latin America. I wasn't saying give money and aid to the Soviets. I was saying the US should have taken itssteel toed boot of the necks of the peoples of Latin America. As a comparisson to Chile Canada nationized its petrolium industry at about the same time. Did that make us communists, or how about the national railroads or national airlines or how about our social security net. Those were socialist actions. Did that make us communists, Soviet puppets?

Nicaragua, The Dominican Republic, Haiti, Honduras aren't the Soviet Union and neither were countries like Zaire/Congo. The US propped up dictators in all the these countries and in Latin America created these dictatorships more or less as they arose from the US created National Guards in these countries, which in turn replaced the vicious rule of US Marines (US marines controlled most of Latin America from around 1910 to 1930, and these Marines were noted for numerous atrocities against Latin American populations).

Latin America hates the US due to over a century of oppression and economocic control. There's a lot of Canadinas here who consider the US imperialist. I'm currently taking a course which looks at America as Empire at my university.

 

[melon]

Only slightly bemusing...

If the U.S. installed the dictator, the U.S. is bad.

If the U.S. removes the dictator, the U.S. is bad.

Just making an observation...

Melon

 

[nbcrusader]

Only slightly bemusing...

If the U.S. installed the dictator, the U.S. is bad.

If the U.S. removes the dictator, the U.S. is bad.

Just making an observation...

Melon

*Offer only applies when a Republican is in office.....

 

[hiphop]

Only slightly bemusing...

If the U.S. installed the dictator, the U.S. is bad.

If the U.S. removes the dictator, the U.S. is bad.

Just making an observation...

Melon

If the U.S. stays on its own territory, the U.S. is good.

But it never did. Slightly bemusing...

 

[Flag Pole Pear]

hiphop said what i was going to say.

 

[diamond]

my little lefty friends are soo selective.

 

[JOFO]

If the U.S. stays on its own territory, the U.S. is good.

But it never did. Slightly bemusing...

fuckin' A...

I might be wrong, but I heard iraq invaded kuwait in 1990.

 

[STING2]

Blacksward,

There is a good rebuttal to nearly everything you said but I don't have the time to go into it at the moment. Many people have a different view on a number of the conclusions and facts you brought out in addition to motives.
Courses I took at my University on US foreign Policy were objective and unbiased and there certainly were no courses that were so presumtive as to call America an Empire. Reinforcing your point of view is fine, but it also helps to challange it as well.

 

[STING2]

HIPHOP,

"You know, STING2, this thread was about the nuclear options, but there are a row of other topics too, like "the average American consumer". You asked me to explain how you were betrayed. I therefore must have implied you were an average American consumer - which you are, maybe. Most average American consumers don?t have a family members who are part of 1% (to me, it seems the financial "elite" is more in the direction of 0,001%, but thats another story, and we don?t really need to discuss about that)."

Sorry to inform but its not unlikely for the average person to have an Uncle, Aunt, Grandparent, Cousin, that is in the top 1% in the USA. Certainly many people don't, but there are many that do. Just because one or two members of a large family are very rich, does not make the rest of the family necessarily very rich. But why are bringing this up? Why is this relevant?

I can disagree with your view points or opinions but still respect them.

 

[STING2]

HIPHOP,

"If the U.S. stays on its own territory, the U.S. is good."

And when the USA does not stay on its own territory you think it is .....?

 

[Flag Pole Pear]

not always their business?

i wont say always, because the more ive thought about it, the more i believe it was necessary (remember this is a pascifist speaking) for the us to join both world wars.

aside from that one, meeeeeeeehhh....

anyway, as a side note, canada lost a 105 year old man yesterday. i believe he was one of the last, if not the very last canadian soldier who fought in the battle of the bulge during world war 1.

 

[Anoosh Vs. God]

Blacksword, how're you liking your big fed government up there in Canada? "Latin America hates the US due to over a century of oppression and economocic control." Doesn't that control come from within? It's funny how the citizens risk their lives to get into the US. "There's a lot of Canadinas here who consider the US imperialist. " So? There's a lot of americans here who consider north america quasi-commumist. "I'm currently taking a course which looks at America as Empire at my university." America as an empire? I wouldn't go that far, but thank you!
Your interpretation of history is obviously biased and one-sided, I suggest you take a more objective courses.

 

[brettig]

the battle of the bulge during world war 1.

ww1? battle of the bulge was fought late in ww2. perhaps you mean some other battle...

 

[Klaus]

Canada...they are not supporting us? Interesting.

Western Europe? All of Western Europe? Or France and Germany?

Nah...no dictatorship there....Just a lot of greed. But that couldn't cloud their judgement now could it?

Food for oil benefits...hmmmmmmm

Allmost all countries in the world (including France and Germany of course) would be happy if there was a regime change in Iraq.
The main differences between France/Germany and USA/GB is the way - not the goal.
And yes - there are more options than war and doing nothing.

It would be verry helpfull for the peace in the world if some more people in the white house could see grayscales and not only black and white - fundamentalism isn't the best strategy to prevent desasters.

Emnid asked europeans if they are pro / contra military action in Iraq:




CountryWar (Yes | No | Just with UN mandat [%])

Czech republic 13 | 76 | 24
Denmark 10 | 45 | 38
Finnland 6 | 44 | 37
France 7 | 60 | 27
Germany 9 | 50 | 39
Great Britain 10 | 41 | 39
Greece 7 | 86 |22
Ireland 8 | 39 | 50
Italy 16 | 50 |33
Netherlands 7 | 38 | 51
Norway 6 | 54 | 30
Portugal 10 | 53 | 29
Spain 4 | 74 | 13

Russia 7 | 59 | 23


these are the opinions of the people - not of the government, but in democracies the opinion of them should be important too.

Klaus