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Old 06-10-2004, 04:15 PM   #1
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Not So Free Speech

Brigitte Bardot fined for inciting racial hatred

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In the book, she laments the “Islamization of France” and the “underground and dangerous infiltration of Islam.”

“Mme. Bardot presents Muslims as barbaric and cruel invaders, responsible for terrorist acts and eager to dominate the French to the extent of wanting to exterminate them,” the court said.
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Old 06-10-2004, 04:29 PM   #2
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Sometimes the elderly get fanatical.
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Old 06-10-2004, 04:32 PM   #3
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Well, your comment is, frankly, lacking in the difference between the United States and Europe, in regards to what is obscene.

The United States protects hate speech, while massively cracks down on sexual speech, deeming the latter as obscene. Europe, in contrast, has less of a problem with sexual speech, but has a huge problem with hate speech--a likely result of the effect of hate speech in regards to Nazi Germany.

Brigitte Bardot, if she were in America, would likely be a member of the KKK. She has made previous offensive comments about racial minorities and immigrants before. She knows what she is doing, and she does not deserve our sympathy.

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Old 06-10-2004, 04:33 PM   #4
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Inciting racial hatred is a crime, she deserves to be punished for it. Besides, I find it hard to have any sympathy for someone who calls gay people "fairground freaks" and opposes marriage between people of different races.

Do you believe it's wrong she was fined for this, nbc?
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Old 06-10-2004, 04:46 PM   #5
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You can judge her for her speech.

A government fine for speech is widely condemned on this board.

I guess, as melon suggests, some speech is more free than others.
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Old 06-10-2004, 04:47 PM   #6
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I actually thought perhaps nbc was making a comment on Bardot's abuse of free speech but we'll wait for his response.
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Old 06-10-2004, 04:47 PM   #7
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And now I see I was wrong.
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Old 06-10-2004, 04:53 PM   #8
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I am not supporting what she says in any respect. Inferring otherwise would be a mistake.

I am surprised at the lack of support for her right to say it.
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Old 06-10-2004, 04:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
You can judge her for her speech.

A government fine for speech is widely condemned on this board.
I was wondering what your opinion was, rather than what you expected the majority opinion to be.

Anyway, do you think it's wrong to have laws against inciting racial hatred?
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Old 06-10-2004, 05:00 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
You can judge her for her speech.

A government fine for speech is widely condemned on this board.

I guess, as melon suggests, some speech is more free than others.
This was not a government fine, this was a judical fine. The government has not in any way diminished her right to free speech. She may say anything she wants. However, she may be juridically liable for her publications. This is the same in the USA.

Should I publish a book accusing Bush of the gravest things, I'm almost 100% I will get a lawsuit for slander. Here the court fined her for inciting racial hatred.

It's not like there was a government body that decided she needed to pay $500,000 for a few 'fucks'.

C ya!

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Old 06-10-2004, 05:20 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


I was wondering what your opinion was, rather than what you expected the majority opinion to be.

Anyway, do you think it's wrong to have laws against inciting racial hatred?
Maybe you posted before you saw my follow-up post.


I have mixed feelings on the idea of "inciting racial hatred" laws. Going beyond protecting people from harm into the area of "thought crimes" is a principle that can be abused.
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Old 06-10-2004, 05:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn
This was not a government fine, this was a judical fine. The government has not in any way diminished her right to free speech. She may say anything she wants. However, she may be juridically liable for her publications. This is the same in the USA.
I am somewhat confused by the distinction you make. In the US, generally, a fine may only be imposed by a court if the government has passed a law allowing the fine.
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Old 06-10-2004, 05:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Maybe you posted before you saw my follow-up post.
I did. Thank-you for clarifying. BTW, sorry if my post sounded like I was demanding that you express your opinion or something, I probably could have worded that better and I hope it didn't sound too mean.
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Old 06-10-2004, 06:07 PM   #14
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As an American citizen, I am opposed to fining members of the Ku Klux Klan for their hateful, disgusting statements about people who are different from them. As much as I find their beliefs absolutely repulsive and disgusting, they have the right to have these beliefs and yes, to express them in public. I do not like Brigitte Bardot's statements about Muslims, interracial marriage or homosexuality at all. They disgust me. But in the U.S. we don't have laws that call for fines for making these statements, and I don't think we should. Should France? That's for the French people to decide, not us. If these laws have the support of the majority of the French people, so be it.
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Old 06-10-2004, 06:38 PM   #15
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Again, America is pretty unique in its support for the right to utter hate speech, but it is deep in our cultural tradition. It would be foreign to us otherwise.

I'm torn on the issue myself, just to make it clear.

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Old 06-10-2004, 07:08 PM   #16
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Yeah, we are pretty different from other countries in toleration of hate speech. I have always been told that our society has "freedom of speech". That means stuff that you don't want to hear or read, as well as stuff you do want to hear or read. We do penalize the use of profanity and such, which alot of other societies don't. That's the U.S. for you, that's pretty much what we accept and don't accept. I don't know that I like that or not; it's just the way our culture is.
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Old 06-10-2004, 08:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Inciting racial hatred is a crime, she deserves to be punished for it...
I agree. Here is where I reckon the line between free speech and a crime exists. It was even titled so on the link's description in the original post. Free speech isn't always criminal by instigating hate crimes. It is though, when it incites and then the act of inciting it is as well, I believe. That's too convoluted a sentence, but I guess what I'm trying to spit out here, is speech is merely a tool. What becomes of it is the problem.
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Old 06-11-2004, 01:25 AM   #18
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I think that she is totally entitled to her right to speak out against the spread of islamist (key clarifier here) culture, in France there is a real danger from unchecked immigration, I draw attention to the substantial rise in antisemitism over the last few years (vandalism, violent attacks, murder), its always been a problem in Europe but it is growing again. 1st generation kids of Muslim immigrants from former French colonies grow up and many are incited to commit violence by extremist preachers who have also been alowed into the country. The French government won't do a thing about it because it will piss off a lot of people who feel that its an attack against Islam and others will put up with it because they can't seem to care about violence against Jews.

As long as people will put up with "death to the Jews" being preached at a freaking Mosque I have no problem condemning those that support or do nothing about it.
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Old 06-11-2004, 01:30 AM   #19
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In case somebody misinterperates my opinion I am talking about Islamism and not Islam, I have no problem with people worshipping God freely but when people will preach religion as a tool of opression and violence my blood boils.

Heres a wikipedia bit.

Islamism is an ideology which holds that Islam is not only a religion, but a system that also governs the politicial, economic and social imperatives of the state. A crucial goal of Islamism is to take control of the state in order to implement the Islamist system.
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Old 06-11-2004, 03:41 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn
Should I publish a book accusing Bush of the gravest things, I'm almost 100% I will get a lawsuit for slander. Here the court fined her for inciting racial hatred.
yep
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