Norman Mailor: America "Too Patriotic"

[Achtung Bubba]

See Yahoo! News for this story.

The highlights inlcude these great observations:

"What happened on Sept. 11 was horrific, but this patriotic fever can go too far."

"America has an almost obscene infatuation with itself. Has there ever been a big powerful country that is as patriotic as America?"

"You'd really think we were some poor little republic, and that if one person lost his religion for one hour, the whole thing would crumble. America is the real religion in this country."

"The right wing benefited so much from Sept. 11 that, if I were still a conspiratorialist, I would believe they'd done it."

As far as I can tell, Mailor is now living in England (so close to France, and yet so far).

Frankly, I'm glad he showed himself the door.

[Anthony]

I don't see whats so offensive about this particular author's words.

Ant.

[SkeeK]

I agree with a lot of what Mailor is saying.

[joyfulgirl]

I didn't know Norman Mailor stabbed his wife.

[brettig]

Its Norman Mailer...

[The Wanderer]

well I'm not sure who you're glad is gone Bubba, but I've been meaning to read The Gospel According to the Son for ages, still sitting on my bookshelf... has anyone ever read it?

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
See Yahoo! News for this story.

The highlights inlcude these great observations:

"The right wing benefited so much from Sept. 11 that, if I were still a conspiratorialist, I would believe they'd done it."

Geezus.. I've posted this before, and I'll resurrect the post if I get the motivation to... But I've heard this statement in a few places, and disgustingly in a Doonesbury comic, and I this is a boot worthy statement, It just makes me sick, and I'm sure many of you to read something like this.. The other statements are just slams on Americans, but this one is just sick, mean, and a slight case of sour grapes if you ask me.

L.Unplugged

[zonelistener]

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Frankly, I'm glad he showed himself the door.

Why?


[This message has been edited by zonelistener (edited 02-06-2002).]

[Achtung Bubba]

Why do I dislike Mailor's quotes? Because they're wrong.

Since the mid-Sixties, America has been a severely fractured nation. Some of it was needed - civil rights and some of the Vietnam protests, certainly - but most of it has been nonsense: the attack on traditional American values for no better reason than they're tradional American values; the environment of class warfare where one class seems to celebrate when a wealthier class simply gets taxed more; and rampant multiculturalism where your ancestory is treated as far more important than your value as an individual participating in the great American melting pot.

I can think of only a few instances since the baby boomers' revolt where it seems like we were truly one nation:

* The first lunar landing.

* The Apollo 13 near-accident.

* The Challenger catastrophe.

* The hockey game where the underdog U.S. upset the Soviets.

9/11 is a watershed moment, then. A singular moment where most Americans did the right thing and disregarded race, sex, and social status and embraced what it means to be an American. As we were rocked by an act of war, we showed our true colors:

* Firefighters, cops, and everyday civilians risked their lives to save others in the World Trade Center.

* Civilians on the flight over Pennsylvania rushed terrorists to keep them from killing more Americans.

* People across the country gave blood and money rather than give in to looting and panicking.

* The U.S. military carefully and deliberately cleaned a country of its extremist regime and the terrorist group it supported - and simultaneously fed and freed a people.

* And the American President seems determined to not leave a job half-done, to finish the task at hand, just as the Greatest Generation once rallied to storm the beaches on two fronts.

And look at the results: some politically correct pencil-pusher tried to create a racially balanced statue recreating the raising of the tattered Ground Zero American flag - when the public record shows that all three fire fighters happened to be white. The result was that a large portion of the American people immediately saw through the excuses and found the statue justifiably offensive.

After nearly forty years of people consumed with themselves (free sex, free drugs, etc.), it seems possible that the country as a whole is finding something more important: each other. Our nation. The United States of America.

And Mailer immediately criticizes the change.

To him, I would say he should find some spare change, good old-fashioned American coinage, and find the Latin phrase:

E pluribus unum.

Out of many, one.

And he should take that change, find a payphone, and call someone who still cares what he things.

[Angela Harlem]

He got his Pulitzer for Executioner's Song. Anyone read it? You'd wanna be pissed if you are from Utah.

ya know, he served for America , and I'd say, over the last 78 odd years, that man has seen stuff that the books we read, cannot begin to describe.

Just a thought.

[The Wanderer]

maybe he should call you, Bubba?

[Achtung Bubba]

No, I'm just trying a little pre-emptive commentary. It seems, every time I look, someone else has posted a REALLY moronic article and praising it as just, simply wonderful.

I figure little tidbit was coming to the forum eventually, so it might as well be introduced as the stupidity it is.

[Achtung Bubba]

As an aside, I'm not sure whether 9/11 will bring about a permanent change in the culture. I can hope, but realistically, it may peter out quickly.

In which case, people like Mailer are complaining about the temporary unity, just because it's not the normal, dysfunctional America.

[DoctorGonzo]

I find patriotism to be a facile, masturbatory exercise in extreme narcissism where people lose sight of specific values and focus entirely on worshipping an entity designed to represent those ideals. While occasionally, working to undermine those ideals while maintaining the illusion of their importance.

I feel more comfortable supporting the values of freedom and democracy, as opposed to putting my faith in an entity, which claims to hold them in extremely high regard.

[Achtung Bubba]

Good for you, doctorgonzo.

Either way (supporting freedom or a country that champions it), America's the good guys.

[pax]

Either way (supporting freedom or a country that champions it), America's the good guys.

1.) First of all, we haven't *always* been the "good guys."

2.) There are no "good guys" in war.




------------------
If you cannot live together in here, you cannot live together out there, let me tell ya. --Bono

You've got to cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice... --Bono

[DoctorGonzo]

Either way (supporting freedom or a country that champions it), America's the good guys.

Tell that to the people of Nicuragua.

Or Chile.

Or El Salvador.



[This message has been edited by DoctorGonzo (edited 02-06-2002).]

[Achtung Bubba]

Or the people of postwar Europe.

Or postwar Asia.

Or the former East Germany.

Or the recently freed Afghanistan.

Yes, we're not perfect, DoctorGonzo; in fact, we're horrible, until you start comparing us to other countries who either have a history of doing nothing but oppress as many people as they can - and those countries who do nothing but placate thugs.

[Achtung Bubba]

Originally posted by paxetaurora:
1.) First of all, we haven't *always* been the "good guys."

2.) There are no "good guys" in war.

In response to Point 1), even if we haven't always been the good guys, we are now.

And Point 2? Well, that might make a great bumper sticker, but it's still wrong.

Remember World War II?

Those guys that conquered half of Europe and tried to exterminate the Jews and others? The Nazis? They were the BAD GUYS.

Those guys that launched a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor and instituted the Bataan Death March? The Japanese? They were also the BAD GUYS.

The guys who tried to stop them, most notably the Western powers (the U.S., the U.K., Canada, etc.)? They were logically THE GOOD GUYS.

(And I know the obvious reply: I'm mentioning WWII again! Well, it's the obvious counterexample, and ALL I need is one example to prove Point 2) wrong.)

There is such a thing as good and such a thing as evil. There are those who start wars by hijacking planes and hurling them into buildings - and they're evil. And there are those who have no reasonable choice but to respond with overwhelming military force to protect its people and civilization (that archaic institution which frowns upon ramming planes into buildings); they are good.

[DoctorGonzo]

Yes, we're not perfect, DoctorGonzo; in fact, we're horrible, until you start comparing us to other countries who either have a history of doing nothing but oppress as many people as they can - and those countries who do nothing but placate thugs.

We are horrible regardless of who you compare us to. The fact other nations do bad things, doesn't change the fact what we do is horrible and completely inexcuseable.

And then we deny it.

And then lambast nations who do similar things as horrible "axis of evil" or whatever the latest catchphrase is.

Take for example Iraq. One example out of many, but a very clear indication of how corrupt the U.S is.

They gassed their own people, in return we gave them shitloads of money and weapons.

And Bush gets up and has the nerve to get up in front of the world and condemn Iraq for doing what it did, and any nation that supports people like Saddam Hussein.

The U.S's "War On Terrorism" has ZERO credibility with me. They don't care what nations or groups do. They are happily willing to ally themselves with any sort of criminal dictator or terrorist organization if it is convinent. As long as they aren't targeting the U.S or its interests that week.

[This message has been edited by DoctorGonzo (edited 02-06-2002).]