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Old 02-07-2002, 02:22 AM   #21
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patriotism + too much of it=nationalism?
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Old 02-07-2002, 02:37 AM   #22
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So, DoctorGonzo:

It's been recently announced that emails are now demonstrating John Walker Lindh dispised the United States. I quote:

In a September 1998 letter to his mother, the government says Lindh wrote that the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in East Africa "seem far more likely to have been carried out by the American government than by any Muslims."

Lindh allegedly suggested in a February 2000 e-mail that his mother should move to England: "I really don't know what your big attachement to America is all about. What has America ever done for anybody?"

Another e-mail sent in 2001 discusses family life in Pakistan, and Lindh was said to have written that the contrast with the United States "really makes me look upon American society with pity."


I'm not at all suggesting you're another Lindh, but please honestly answer this question for me:

Do you find yourself agreeing with this guy?

(I'm HONESTLY not going anywhere with this: but having read that story and your replies, it seems like a LEGITIMATE question.)

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 02-06-2002).]
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Old 02-07-2002, 02:45 AM   #23
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ok this is getting stupid.
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Old 02-07-2002, 02:50 AM   #24
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Maybe, but the perspectives seem similar.
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Old 02-07-2002, 04:20 AM   #25
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Everyone has their opinions, and in a forum like this, I doubt anyone is going to change thier minds...

But my opinion sums up like this:

United We Stand
BUT PARANOIA ALL THE WAY, BABY!!!
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Old 02-07-2002, 05:13 AM   #26
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"America has an almost obscene infatuation with itself. Has there ever been a big powerful country that is as patriotic as America?"

Yep, and it was called USSR.
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Old 02-07-2002, 11:33 AM   #27
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Why are there no "good guys" in war? Because in war, both/all sides have to destroy things, kill people, injure people, and otherwise make innocents suffer.

I don't think I need to say that I deplore the events of September 11th, although I'll say it anyway. And I do hope that those who planned and perpetrated the acts are caught and brought to justice. But what really gets my goat are people who think we ought not give any more money to Afghanistan. WHY? Well, we destroyed their country. What was there, we wrecked a good bit of it. If we really want to be the "good guys," we will go back over there with billions of our own and our allies' money and put their country back together.

We are not good guys while we torture "unlawful combatants." We are not good guys while we are willing to withhold aid money to Afghanistan to keep their children from starving and keep families homeless. That is NOT good. Two wrongs don't make a right. Ever.

I am an American and I know that I am privileged to live in this country. I have a job, I pay my taxes, and I don't commit crimes any more serious than recreational pot smoking. I was outraged by the Taliban long before most of America even knew where Afghanistan was, because I had done research on their treatment of women and on RAWA (Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan.) But, I have never and will never believe that my country is right all the time, or that we are somehow allowed to do whatever we want in other parts of the world simply because of our power and economic status.

Too much patriotism IS dangerous. Just like too much religion or, for that matter, too much fried chicken or beer is dangerous. When you have too much of a good feeling, you stop thinking about it critically and you can't see all sides of the issue. And that is dangerous.

We are a nation of "good guys," that I will give you. We have many "good guys" among us, like firefighters, humanitarian aid workers, and just regular people who want to help make peace. But America--and our government--as the collective, pure, unspotted "good guys"?

Nope. Sorry. I'm not buying that.

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Old 02-07-2002, 12:04 PM   #28
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I'm not saying we're perfect, that we're the good guys all the time.

But how does the fact that we've screwed up in the past (and honestly reflecting on our mistakes) preclude us from doing the right thing now?

It doesn't.

In specifics, we probably should give more aid to Afghanistan, and I'll be shocked if we don't. Even IF we don't, that doesn't automatically make us either bad guys or equivalent to al Queda.

And, again, we're not torturing anyone.
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Old 02-07-2002, 01:43 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Saracene:
"America has an almost obscene infatuation with itself. Has there ever been a big powerful country that is as patriotic as America?"

Yep, and it was called USSR.
Are you for real? Do you know anything about USSR people in those 50-60 yrs (1930-1990)? They were opressed and tortured, they had tens of thousands of political prisoners - they were never patriotic as USA.
I'm not saying that being patriotic is bad, I just want to prove your statement is way off.

Bubba: Generaly there were good guys in WW2, but US did some horible acts together with alys - camps for Japanes people (don't tell me that you ad to act tough and cruel b/c they were acting that way - it just brings you a little bit closer to their level), Nuclear bombs and bombing of Hamburg, Dresdner - more civilian casualties than in any other attack in WW2. So these are gross acts by the good guys - that's when a good guy stops being a good guy.
I like the way you make your argument bubba, but we never share the same opinion...

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Old 02-07-2002, 01:44 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora:
Why are there no "good guys" in war? Because in war, both/all sides have to destroy things, kill people, injure people, and otherwise make innocents suffer.

I don't think I need to say that I deplore the events of September 11th, although I'll say it anyway. And I do hope that those who planned and perpetrated the acts are caught and brought to justice. But what really gets my goat are people who think we ought not give any more money to Afghanistan. WHY? Well, we destroyed their country. What was there, we wrecked a good bit of it. If we really want to be the "good guys," we will go back over there with billions of our own and our allies' money and put their country back together.

We are not good guys while we torture "unlawful combatants." We are not good guys while we are willing to withhold aid money to Afghanistan to keep their children from starving and keep families homeless. That is NOT good. Two wrongs don't make a right. Ever.

I am an American and I know that I am privileged to live in this country. I have a job, I pay my taxes, and I don't commit crimes any more serious than recreational pot smoking. I was outraged by the Taliban long before most of America even knew where Afghanistan was, because I had done research on their treatment of women and on RAWA (Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan.) But, I have never and will never believe that my country is right all the time, or that we are somehow allowed to do whatever we want in other parts of the world simply because of our power and economic status.

Too much patriotism IS dangerous. Just like too much religion or, for that matter, too much fried chicken or beer is dangerous. When you have too much of a good feeling, you stop thinking about it critically and you can't see all sides of the issue. And that is dangerous.

We are a nation of "good guys," that I will give you. We have many "good guys" among us, like firefighters, humanitarian aid workers, and just regular people who want to help make peace. But America--and our government--as the collective, pure, unspotted "good guys"?

Nope. Sorry. I'm not buying that.

I agree, beautiful answer.

Ant.
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Old 02-07-2002, 02:16 PM   #31
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The U.S. still isn't torturing anybody.
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Old 02-07-2002, 02:38 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
The U.S. still isn't torturing anybody.
Actually, we are; apparently, the Caribbean breeze at Guantanamo Bay is too "balmy" for the detainees. Also, our CIA operative, the late Mike Spann (an Auburn grad like yourself) allegedly asked Little Johnny Walker too many questions, thus committing an act of "torture."

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Old 02-07-2002, 04:03 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peaseblossom:
This isn't East Germany circa early 1900's. You can leave if you'd like.

this is a joke, right? a joke! either that or a case of dazlling stupidity...

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Old 02-07-2002, 07:03 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peaseblossom:
Wow, Bubba, I'm right with you on this one. All the way. It's great to hear someone else that believes this strongly in our country.
Thanks - glad to find another friend in the arena of ideas.

And, Marko, I don't *think* it's a joke, because one CAN leave quite easily.
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Old 02-07-2002, 08:32 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
conspiratorialist
I served on the Warren Commission.

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Old 02-07-2002, 08:44 PM   #36
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Quote:
I truly don't understand how people who live in this country, and have been given all the gifts that go with it, can bash the U.S. like they do. If it's so bad, why do they live here?
Let me put it to you this way. Whether or not you were fortunate enough to have lived this way, imagine that you are the child of at least one or possibly two decent, hardworking, loving parents. You might have complained about them and you might still complain about them. You know they've messed up, and you think maybe they even messed you up a bit. But you know that they could have been worse, and you still love them, even though you might even criticize them to their very faces.

That's sort of how I see the United States. Not perfect, not always right. Sometimes does too much, sometimes does too little. But it's still the country I was born in and the country I live in, for better or for worse. And I live here mostly because I think my personality is pretty deeply entrenched in American culture, and I would miss it if I left.

If you can love and appreciate your parents without believing that they're perfect, why can't you feel the same way about your country?

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Old 02-08-2002, 03:19 AM   #37
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There has also been released this audio clip of one of the detainees issuing a formal complaint about the deplorable conditions in Cuba.

For those without a proper media player, a transcript:

Excuse me, Senor? May I speak to you please?

I asked for a mai tai and they brought me a pina colada, and I said no salt, NO SALT for the margarita, but it had salt on it. It had big grains of salt on it.

(Untelligible response)

Lo siento, but if it happens again, I won't be leaving a tip. Because I could, I could shut this whole resort down.

Sir?

I could take my traveler's checks to a competing resort. I could write a letter to your board of tourism and I could have this place condemned. I could put, I could put strychnine in the guacamole! There was salt on the glass, BIG grains of salt!


Hopefully, this tape will be played on all the major networks this evening.
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Old 02-08-2002, 03:40 AM   #38
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Wow, Bubba, I'm right with you on this one. All the way. It's great to hear someone else that believes this strongly in our country.

I truly don't understand how people who live in this country, and have been given all the gifts that go with it, can bash the U.S. like they do. If it's so bad, why do they live here? This isn't East Germany circa early 1900's. You can leave if you'd like.

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Old 02-08-2002, 05:12 AM   #39
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"Are you for real? Do you know anything about USSR people in those 50-60 yrs (1930-1990)? They were opressed and tortured, they had tens of thousands of political prisoners - they were never patriotic as USA.
I'm not saying that being patriotic is bad, I just want to prove your statement is way off."

Yes, I know a lot about the USSR people in these 50-60 years, because some of them included my parents and grandparents, and in fact myself (well, for the first 15 years of my life). Yes, there was oppression and tortures (especially during the Stalinist times), yet hundreds of millions of people sincerely believed that they lived in the best country in the world and that all those cruelties done by their Communist government were necessary for the good of their beloved Motherland. They were immensely proud to be living in USSR and even those people who hated the regime would give their lives to defend their country (like millions of Soviets did during World War II). That's why there're still millions of people from the older generations who wish for the old times to return. For many Russians, it was and still is inconceivable to live anywhere else but Russia.
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Old 02-08-2002, 05:17 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by brettig:
Its Norman Mailer...
Still is

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