"No Hablo Espanol and NEVER WILL!"

[MissVelvetDress_75]

Obviously you do care. You wouldn't feel as angry about the issue if you didn't.

 

[BluRmGrl]

Point A: Rude sign, bigoted owner, establishment not to collect any of my hard-earned dollars.

Point B: If you move to another country to RESIDE in it long enough to seek employment - learn to speak the LOCAL LANGUAGE. Whether you're Mexican/South American/Central American, etc. moving to the US or if you're a Pygmy moving to Pakistan. Speak what you want at home - teach your children... it's their heritage - but in public, SPEAK IN THE LOCAL TONGUE. Period.

I welcome any and all to come to this great country and benefit from their hard work.... I just expect them to speak English while they're doing it.

 

[indra]

A question for all those who want people who come to live in the US from other countries and speak a different language.

How long does an immigrant get to learn the language?

 

[BluRmGrl]

A question for all those who want people who come to live in the US from other countries and speak a different language.

How long does an immigrant get to learn the language?

Obviously, there's an adjustment period... a time when you first move to the States and are learning the language. But even in my average-sized, southeastern NC city (Wilmington), we have FREE English As a Second Language workshops - which, yes, are widely advertised in Spanish. Anyone can pick up a few words a day; after a few months, you should be able to piece together simple sentences. I understand that it takes time to learn a new language and that kids pick it up faster than adults, usually. But so many of the Latinos that I come across daily in my work (auto & property insurance) have had established residences for over a year yet still expect us to have an interpreter on staff - and that's the point that I take issue with.

 

[Sue DeNym]

But that sign is really ridiculously rude, and I think it's got very little to do with language and a hell of a lot to do with bigotry. They're making a bigger statement here, one which says a lot more about them than they may want us to know.

That's it exactly. It's bigoted, stupid and rude, no different than segregation. That nasty attitude should have died out ages ago.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Obviously, there's an adjustment period... a time when you first move to the States and are learning the language. But even in my average-sized, southeastern NC city (Wilmington), we have FREE English As a Second Language workshops - which, yes, are widely advertised in Spanish. Anyone can pick up a few words a day; after a few months, you should be able to piece together simple sentences. I understand that it takes time to learn a new language and that kids pick it up faster than adults, usually. But so many of the Latinos that I come across daily in my work (auto & property insurance) have had established residences for over a year yet still expect us to have an interpreter on staff - and that's the point that I take issue with.

I also have a problem with the selective nature of which immigrants have to learn English, and which don't. In Denver, we have a large Spanish community and the city accordingly prints almost everything in both languages, and encourages everyone to learn Spanish.

But we also have an extremely large Russian and Asian population--but nothing is printed in Russian, Vietnamese or Japanese. No one is encouraged to learn those languages--your lucky if you can find a Russian language class. Why is it that if you come here from Mexico or South America, you get a pass, but not if you come from Europe or Asia?

My Polish friend still struggles with English after 20 years in this country--if he hadn't learned English, he wouldn't have been able to get his degree, or get a job here. No one ever offered him a Polish interpreter. Yet just yesterday, I'm berated by a Spanish guy who can't understand me, yet we handed him a college degree.

I'm a big believer in keeping your language and culture alive, but the hypocrisy of the language barrier angers me.

 

[NYRangers78]

Obviously you do care. You wouldn't feel as angry about the issue if you didn't.

after thinking about it, your right. i do care a great deal. i see american values and the english language falling by the wayside and nyc turning into a dominican republic, puerto rico, and mexican village. years ago immigrants came here and they had to learn the language and contribute positively to the country. now? immigrants,and not just the non speaking english ones, come here with this entitlement attitude. now, i have to sit through tons of things in spanish on the phone just to get an english menu or operator and thats a disgrace. i ve already gone on about this is another thread about national id's so i wont get into it again...to each his own.

i dont have a problem with immigrants speaking their language to each other when theyre at home. but i have a guy at my job who always addresses me in spanish even though ive told the guy a 1000 times that i speak english and this is america and he should speak english. i took spanish for 3 years in high school and i can speak it but i dont care to. especially not with this guy. hes been in the country for 30 years now and his first language long ago shouldve been english. the kicker is that he speaks perfect english. its almost like hes purposely doing it to either piss me off or just to thumb his nose at america and the english language. not to mention its also disrespectful when hes talking to other guys in spanish in front of me. 1) its rude and 2) u never know if hes talking about you or not.


and im not even a teacher but i dont blame the public school teachers one bit for the problems in nyc or anywhere else in america for that matter. i have plenty of friends who are teachers who are fed up trying to teach these kids. the kids dont speak english and dont want to learn and when the kids act up and my friends call the kids' parents, the parents come in and blame the teacher. there is no sort of parenting going on at home id say for the majority of public school students. my tax dollars are going towards the babysitting service otherwise known as the nyc public school system.

 

[Muggsy]

after thinking about it, your right. i do care a great deal. i see american values and the english language falling by the wayside and nyc turning into a dominican republic, puerto rico, and mexican village. years ago immigrants came here and they had to learn the language and contribute positively to the country. now? immigrants,and not just the non speaking english ones, come here with this entitlement attitude. now, i have to sit through tons of things in spanish on the phone just to get an english menu or operator and thats a disgrace. i ve already gone on about this is another thread about national id's so i wont get into it again...to each his own.

I'm sorry but you're talking like our language is something bad wich contaminates the "pureness" of your english, I don't know ....

it is obvious.... if you go to work to another country you have to learn a new lenguage and a new way of life... but let me tell you something: languages and cultures evolve and they feed with the interaction with new people, like inmigrants for example.

And I can say the same thing of the "American Culture" and the English language: that they are contaminating our culture and stuff. But I really think that the world culture chances with things like the commerce and the media, blending a lot of values. Culture and language are not static things, they move with the people.

 

[NYRangers78]

the way i see it, if u are living in colombia, then u should be speaking spanish. if u dont know spanish, then one should learn it if they are going to be liviing there. if u are living in america and u dont know english, then you should learn it. same as if i was moving to germany, id learn german. having never been to colombia, how in the english language contaminating colombia.

and i dont intend to make it sound as if the spanish language is bad. its not. its actually very beautiful. i just dont think it should be thrust upon everyone in america and it automatically be assumed that people speak it. i say the same thing about all the non english speaking immigrants who come to america and dont make the effort to learn english or if they know english, wont speak it.

 

[dandy]

great post, Muggsy.

one thing to keep in mind when discussing this topic: we in north america are very lucky to live where live. having to move to another country to support ourselves is not something many of us will have to do. moving to a different country, with different languages, cultures, ways of living, etc. is difficult, and from that end, i have a lot of respect for the people who choose to do so in search of a better life.

also, it is not easy to learn a new language as an adult. one of my good friends teaches english as a second language (ESL) to newly arrived immigrants from all over the planet. the kids pick it up quickly enough, but the adults often struggle. english is not an easy language to learn--phonetically speaking, it's a nightmare, not to mention those 300+ irregular verbs. as a canadian who knows french, but still struggles to speak it well, i know how difficult it is for me, and i grew up surrounded with french language and culture.

i don't think english is under attack, nor do i think our culture is in jeopardy (far from it).

 

[NYRangers78]

dandy...u live in canada. i dont know how it is in canada, but come to new york and live in the bronx for a week. youll see exactly what im talking about....

 

[MissVelvetDress_75]

There is no way I could survive living in the Bronx. I am sure I would be annoyed with a lot of things in a matter of seconds.

I will admit that I get very annoyed when I talk to anyone that does not speak English well at all. I will typically go on rants about how I find it rude not to learn the language of the country you are living in. However I do wish I knew how to speak Spanish, French, Russian, German, Chinese, Japanesse, etc. instead of American English and Southern American English.

There are good points made in this thread and I am glad I posted this.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Here's the thing, though-in some other countries, the language there is the official language, hence why they expect you to learn it, why it's required and all that.

Here in America, however, we don't have an official language. Yes, a good majority of the people speak English, but we have no official language. Therefore, while it certainly would help people who move here to learn English, it's not exactly a requirement, because English isn't our official language. It's just something that would be appreciated.

And I do think that if they're going to take the time to learn English, we should try and learn at the very least the basics of theirs. That's what I did when a girl moved to my town back in Iowa from Mexico-I decided to take Spanish so I could understand her a bit better, and at the same time, she was doing her part to learn the language I speak.

Angela

 

[dandy]

the way i see it, if u are living in colombia, then u should be speaking spanish. if u dont know spanish, then one should learn it if they are going to be liviing there. if u are living in america and u dont know english, then you should learn it. same as if i was moving to germany, id learn german.

just a thought: the people who founded the US and Canada didn't bother to learn the natives' languages when they first arrived here. in fact, they had no respect at all for the people who had lived on this land for centuries. they just came in and took over, by force.

how quickly we forget that our countries were founded by illegal immigrants.

 

[AvsGirl41]

just a thought: the people who founded the US and Canada didn't bother to learn the natives' languages when they first arrived here. in fact, they had no respect at all for the people who had lived on this land for centuries. they just came in and took over, by force.

how quickly we forget that our countries were founded by illegal immigrants.

Ugh, I hate arguments like that. It's these kind of apologist statements that lead us into the politically-charged language debates we're in today. It is said repeatedly here in Colorado "This was Mexico, so we should all speak Spanish" as if that will reverse history and make everything all right. Instead it just leads to shoddy bi-lingual policies.

I am sorry for what happened in the past, as I think many Americans are. But it's not relevant to an ESL debate. The mindsets of the early colonies was completely different in regards to other cultures than ours today. Calling them "conquerors" rather than illegal immigrants is much more accurate--but admittedly not as catchy.

 

[dandy]

point taken. i just think it's important to remember the history, and to remember not to get too bogged down in a sense of entitlement in this debate.

 

[BonosSaint]

Americans would be totally lost in other countries if their signs and their people didn't cater to us in English. We just take it flat out for granted whenever we are in other countries that they will accomodate us. I notice that many of us expect that accomodation when we travel. Someone made the point earlier that Americans are rarely required to learn a second language to survive and many of us would probably throw a royal fit if we did.

I agree that once someone decides to make their home in the United States, he/she should attempt to learn the language as a gesture of respect to their new country and not feel that they are entitled to complete accomodation. Some people can feel that sense of entitlement an insult to the country they have adopted, and perhaps there is some justification in that. I would not feel any country I moved to would have to adapt to me, but that I would have to adapt to it.

But Hispanics are accomodated here due to sheer numbers and commerce reasons. They know their power.

 

[Tech]

Wow. Very interesting topic. For myself living in southern Cali yes Spanish is everywhere. I came from parents who immigrated from Mexico. Us kids learned English at school. There was no ESL or spanish/english classes back then. You were just put in school and taught english. That's how we all learned the language.

You cannot generalize and say that all kids or people either are not or will not learn the language. Yes some people abuse the system and thus don't feel that learning english is essential. But to those that want a better life for there family they learn English. It just sucks that a few bad apples destroys what others think of this topic.

 

[NYRangers78]

http://www.workings.com/LIA_EOL.htm

On Aug. 1, 1996, the House of Representatives voted 259-169 to declare English the official language of the United States; the Senate never acted on the bill. Source: Cong. Rec. Aug. 1, 1996, H9771-72.


i wonder why the senate never acted on the bill...anyone know?

 

[BonosSaint]

I suspect the Senate considered it a purely political move by the relatively new Republican majority in the House. More symbol than substance.

 

[Bono's shades]

I suspect the Senate considered it a purely political move by the relatively new Republican majority in the House. More symbol than substance.

I suspect that's what happened, too. I know for a fact that's what happened when some conservatives in my state (Iowa) tried to get English declared the official language of the state. The majority of the people in the state legislature saw if for what it was - political grandstanding and pandering to the anti-immigration crowd.

 

[deep]

Those are the exact words displayed on a sign outside of a bar called "Mulligan's" in my city.
.

If you go out the back door there is a second sign, it reads:

"IF THE AMIGO HANGIN' IN THE TREE
SAYS HE AIN'T DEAD, DON'T BELIEVE HIM.
YOU KNOW THEY LIE."

 

[sharky]

I remember going to Paris and Rome. When I was in Rome, I brought a phrase translation book, which came in handy when I was in a small Italian village where no one spoke english asking where the train station was. And in Paris, I had to recall my French from high school to order baguettes and know how much the person behind the counter asked for them. Americans travelling abroad are thought of as ugly Americans when they sit down at a cafe in Roma and expect their waiter to speak english. I spoke english with my friends but at least tried to speak the native language at times.

I think what this person may have been upset by, and the point some of you are trying to make, is that you should at least try to learn enough of the language when you live here to order "One beer" or "Coke" or whatever. Or perhaps the bar owner had a problem with an employee who didn't speak enough english to understand "Kegs go here.", which is something you should at least expect as an employer.

At the same time, I have no problem walking through Chinatown or the Russian neighborhood my fiance's grandmother lives in in Brooklyn and seeing store signs in other languages. That's what makes NYC great -- the different people and different native tongues on the subway. But at least be able to understand basic english if you needed it.

I do agree though that the sign is tacky and perhaps you should write a letter to the owner. My friend went to a coffee shop on a Sunday morning that was closed with a sign that said "We are closed on Sunday as God intended." Not everyone believes the Sabbath is Sunday and not everyone believes that you shouldn't work on whatever Sabbath you believe in. My friend sent a note, the sign was removed and he received a note of apology from the owner.

 

[deep]

If your friend wont accept Jesus christ as her lord and saviour she may spend the rest of eternity shopping at Walmant Hell with no checkout lines.

 

[unosdostres14]

It's in towns like these where they can't teach evolution........ because it hasn't happened yet.

 

[BonosSaint]

It's in towns like these where they can't teach evolution........ because it hasn't happened yet.

 

[sharky]

If your friend wont accept Jesus christ as her lord and saviour she may spend the rest of eternity shopping at Walmant Hell with no checkout lines.

Hee hee...first, it's a him. and second, he's Jewish -- just like Jesus! -- so we should give him a little slack.

Now if he was Muslim, they should pat him down to check for dirty bombs before he could enter the coffee house.

 

[Seabird]

I also have a problem with the selective nature of which immigrants have to learn English, and which don't. In Denver, we have a large Spanish community and the city accordingly prints almost everything in both languages, and encourages everyone to learn Spanish.

But we also have an extremely large Russian and Asian population--but nothing is printed in Russian, Vietnamese or Japanese. No one is encouraged to learn those languages--your lucky if you can find a Russian language class. Why is it that if you come here from Mexico or South America, you get a pass, but not if you come from Europe or Asia?

My Polish friend still struggles with English after 20 years in this country--if he hadn't learned English, he wouldn't have been able to get his degree, or get a job here. No one ever offered him a Polish interpreter. Yet just yesterday, I'm berated by a Spanish guy who can't understand me, yet we handed him a college degree.

I'm a big believer in keeping your language and culture alive, but the hypocrisy of the language barrier angers me.

I agree with you. No other ethnic group that has immigrated to the US in its history has demanded we speak their language to accomodate them rather than it being the other way around. Can you image what what a "Tower of Babel" mess we'd have if that had occured? I don't think they guy who owns the bar necessarily has anything against Hispanics, only the way their language is being forced on the American mainstream.

Like Avs, I am all for immigrants preserving their culture, but at home, not in the society of another country. This goes for every immigrant in every country, not just Hispanics in America.

 

[Seabird]

And I do think that if they're going to take the time to learn English, we should try and learn at the very least the basics of theirs.
Angela

Would you-could you do this for every immigrant? In many places there are immigrants who bring literally dozens of languages into the mix. Is it fair to the French, German, Russian, Vietnamese, Chinese, Indians, etc. to only coddle the Spanish speakers? Since we simply can't accomodate them all, and it's not fair to pick and choose, it is actually more convenient for society as a whole for the immigrants to learn the language of their new country other than vice versa. If you enjoy learning new languages, that's great, but it shouldn't become a necessity because of immigrants in any country.

 

[Tania]

Some comments:

Whatever happened to tolerance?

That sign appears to incite people to extreme view points. Would we even be discussing this if it had said "When ordering/speaking to the employees of this bar please speak English as our Spanish is only basic"?

If I was living in another country where English was not the first language and I had to sort out something like insurance I think I would be asking for an interpreter, if only to make sure I understood what I was signing.

How many versions of English are there? Let's face it, sometimes we have trouble understanding what each other are saying here where each answer is written down. Imagine what it is like for a 40+ person, trying to learn English and get all the nuances of the country they are living in and try and have a conversation at the same time?