New Yale Study On "Weight-ism"

[VintagePunk]

Originally posted by diamond




Now after a skinny person or fat person opens their mouth you have 30 seconds to get a person to warm up to you or start subconsciously pulling a way.

dbs

Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
You only give people 30 seconds?

Judgments about people are made a lot more quickly than 30 seconds. I believe that the general figure I've heard is 4 seconds. Of course, after this 4 seconds passes, if we interact with this person, we are then given information that will confirm or refute our initial impressions. But, if it's a superficial situation where we really have little reason to delve deeper to get to know the person, we'll often look for information that will confirm our initial impression, due to the innate confirmatory bias that we all possess.

[VintagePunk]

Originally posted by yolland
Curvy has nothing to do with overweight; not sure why that's even being brought up. That's usually used to refer to women who are on the heavier end of 'slender' and are lucky enough to have genes that cause their body fat to be distributed in the 'hourglass' shape. Other women of the same height and weight wouldn't have that shape at all nor be capable of achieving it.

I was thinking of that when looking at pictures of Nigella last night, how fortunate it is for her that (with the exception of the past several months), she seems to be perfectly proportioned.

The Yale study is available online here. Overall, the presence of "weight/height discrimination" was reported at 5% for men and 10% for women. Problematically, the survey they drew their data from didn't distinguish between the two--i.e., height discrimination and weight discrimination--though it did ask respondents to classify themselves as "normal weight," "overweight," "moderately obese," or "severely obese" ("underweight" wasn't an option), allowing for somewhat more informed guesses as to which form of discrimination individual respondents had in mind. A couple other problems with the design: white people were strongly overrespresented among the respondents, and it wasn't clear to me from a quick skim if or how they adjusted for that; also, the study considers only self-reported discrimination, i.e., it reflects only the respondents' own perceptions as to whether discrimination of whichever type was the reason they didn't get hired/promoted/etc. in some particular case (which isn't a "problem" really, just a built-in shortcoming to be aware of).

You're right, that is a very poorly designed study, and all it really informs about are the participants' self-perceptions. I haven't looked at it, but I wonder from reading what you've posted if, when placing themselves into a category, the participants were given guidelines to follow (height-weight charts or BMI), or if it they simply placed themselves where they felt was appropriate.

[diamond]

Originally posted by VintagePunk




Judgments about people are made a lot more quickly than 30 seconds. I believe that the general figure I've heard is 4 seconds. Of course, after this 4 seconds passes, if we interact with this person, we are then given information that will confirm or refute our initial impressions. But, if it's a superficial situation where we really have little reason to delve deeper to get to know the person, we'll often look for information that will confirm our initial impression, due to the innate confirmatory bias that we all possess.

i was sure it was shorter than 30 seconds, but didn't want to sound so calloused.

i think once you start chatting points start going up or down.

dbs

[VintagePunk]

Originally posted by diamond


i was sure it was shorter than 30 seconds, but didn't want to sound so calloused.

i think once you start chatting points start going up or down.

dbs

For once, psychology backs you up, Diamond.

[anitram]

Originally posted by VintagePunk


I was thinking of that when looking at pictures of Nigella last night, how fortunate it is for her that (with the exception of the past several months), she seems to be perfectly proportioned.

I totally agree.

The problem with her current figure is that for women, having a gut like that is really not healthy and there are countless studies to tell you why.

[financeguy]

Over exercising can be bad for you too, Sharon Stone's stroke was caused by it.

[anitram]

Well obviously! Especially when it's in conjunction with not eating enough or not eating properly.

But I think being in shape is mostly about health and only secondarily about how you look. There isn't a person out there who is in great physical shape (low body fat %, good BMI, low resting heart rate) who won't tell you that they feel infinitely better than they did when they weren't as fit. I know for myself, when there was a period or a year or two when I fell behind and didn't bother as much with physical fitness, I had WAY less energy, I wasn't sleeping as well, my immune system was more sluggish, etc. Not to mention how much better you feel mentally.

[A_Wanderer]

FELLAS, read no further. In the area of new information, this story is slim.

There has been a survey and it tells you what you already know: when it comes to women, the vast majority of blokes prefer them well rounded.

It seems their ideal girlfriends are pneumatic, not flat-tyred. They'd rather negotiate sweeping curves than sharp shoulders.

They like women buxom, bosomy and bountiful.

According to the figures, the jury is in: men will choose a Rubenesque size 14 over a stick-figure size 8 when it comes to their ideal woman.

Admittedly, the science could be seen as somewhat superficial.

It is based on an online survey — not the most accurate means of obtaining information — of 60,000 men conducted by laddish men's magazine FHM. The relevant issue is published tomorrow. The mag found that when shown pictures of three bikini-clad models, four out of five men said they were more attracted to the size 12 and size 14 models than the model who was a slimmer size 8.

The majority of votes went to the size 12 woman, with 41% saying that she had the body shape of their "ideal girlfriend". Almost as many men voted for the Nigella Lawson-esque size 14 model.

"A piddling 20% of readers selected our size eight model pictured as their ideal girl-physique," wrote FHM editor Ben Smithurst.

"Which proves one thing, ladies: crack a beer, hoe into a hamburger and we'll love you just as much." Or maybe even more.

Body image experts take a less superficial view of the so-called research, but admit that it carries some, well, weight.

Professor Marika Tiggemann from Flinders University said that the results supported academic research on the topic. "We find women want to be thinner than what men find attractive," she said. "Men's idea of what is 'thin' is larger than that of women. Unfortunately, a lot of people think being thin demonstrates being in control or being disciplined, while being fat is a sign you're weak."

The editor of women's magazine Cleo, Nedahl Stelio, said that most women did not diet for men but for other women.

"Most men I know would go for more boob over thinner thighs, but women, by nature, are competitive with other women," Stelio said.

"And if the society and celebrity ideal is thin, that's what she's going to aspire to, just to get one up on other women."

However, such surveys were far more damaging to women than they were helpful, according to Julie Thomson, general manager of eating disorders and body image campaigners the Butterfly Foundation.

"It objectifies women and it still is perpetuating this ideal that men do look at women externally only," Ms Thomson said.

"There is just far too much importance placed on size when you should be looking at a whole range of other aspects.

"From our perspective as an eating disorder foundation, those sorts of surveys are an issue because they are centred around judging people based on what size they are and it is a really unhealthy way to judge or view people."

She said that women embarked on extreme diets or developed eating disorders for a number of reasons, and it was oversimplistic to attribute such behaviour to a bid to appeal to the opposite sex.

"People develop eating disorders for a wide variety of reasons, including low self-esteem and family history of depressive illness," she said.

"It is very, very complex and it is certainly not just brought about because some people desire to be thin in some sort of effort to attract men."

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/the-figures-are-in-and-they-reveal-that-given-the-choice-most-men-will-plump-for-a-curvy-girl/2008/04/05/1207249548553.html

I vote for 12 on account of her long hair, good complexion and symmetry

[anitram]

LOL those sizes are QUITE different in the US. No way is that woman a 14.....

[MrsSpringsteen]

Originally posted by anitram
LOL those sizes are QUITE different in the US. No way is that woman a 14.....

So what size do you think she'd be in Canada? I'm curious about that, that's interesting. Of course here you can try on all sorts of different labels and the sizes will fit differently. The higher end ones always make them bigger to fool you into thinking you wear a smaller size, that way you'll always want to buy their clothes I suppose. It's all a head game.

It is always said that the average American woman is a size 14, but there's no doubt in my mind that many people consider that to be fat/overweight. Of course multiple size 14's can look different depending upon height, how the weight is distributed, etc.

I would think the average FHM reader prefers the larger woman because the breasts are bigger That is a generalization, I'm sure many could prefer her because she's just hot looking and beautiful, I think she is. I wonder how it would be if the largest sized model wasn't as beautiful and she had cellulite, etc.

[Angela Harlem]

the largest girl looks like an australian size 14 which is what our national average is supposed to be.... she coincidentally has the best funbags as well. if i remember correctly, the american size system is about 2 sizes larger than here, so our sized 14 girl is about an 18 in the US? i can never remember how this works because you talk of size 6 and 4 etc, and they're almost unheard of sizes here, where 8 and 10 are your average petites.

[unico]

it's really hard to tell because like MrsS said, there's so many variations in the sizes in this country. just a few months ago i was shopping for a bridesmaid dress. my usual size didn't fit so the woman ran away and came back yelling "here you go! i had to go get a plus size." do i LOOK like a plus size to you? anyway fuck 'em. like i've always said, i was built for comfort, not for speed.

[Angela Harlem]

*our size 14 would be a size 10 in the US. we're 2 sizes above you. i think. i dunno. now you guys say there's discrepancy in your sizing??? how are foreigners supposed to learn anything? sheesh!

[unico]

we can avoid all this headache if we wore grass and mud

[anitram]

Originally posted by Angela Harlem
*our size 14 would be a size 10 in the US. we're 2 sizes above you. i think. i dunno. now you guys say there's discrepancy in your sizing??? how are foreigners supposed to learn anything? sheesh!

I would guess that woman is a 10, so that makes sense. If the average size in the US is a 14, I do think that is overweight. And again, to me this has to do with health and how you feel moreso than how you look. Granted getting thin may be the reason most people hit the gym, but overall it should be about health. When you're carrying an extra 30 lbs, that's hard on your body.

[Dusty Bottoms]

I don't really buy this...

"That has compelled a number of expert panels, like the National Institutes of Health, to conclude that we really can't expect you to lose more than 10 percent of your body weight and be able to keep that off."

For a 300-pound man, she notes, that's a mere 30 pounds, and he's still overweight, unless he's nearly seven feet tall. Obesity is based on the body mass index (BMI) that is derived from a formula based on weight vs. height. Normal BMI is 18.5 to 24.9. Obesity begins at BMI 30 and ranges up to 40.

Jared used to weigh 425 pounds, but he has lost 245 pounds and kept it off. Did they just completely ignore the Subway Diet in their little study? Kind of invalidates the whole thing in my book.

[MrsSpringsteen]

ABC News

Backlash Against Big Beauty Queen
Is Plus-Size Model 'Normal' or a Bad Example for Girls?
By SUSAN DONALDSON JAMES

April 4, 2008 —

Chloe Marshall's tiara tumbled this week as the British press chided the size-16 Miss England model as "fat, lazy and a poster girl for ill health."

The curvaceous 17-year-old beautician trainee, who was the first plus-sized model in British history to make the July finals of the annual contest, was the butt of numerous assaults in a story in London's gossipy "Daily Mail."

"Feted and fawned over for her courage in daring to break the mould, Chloe boasts she wants to be an 'ambassador for curves'," wrote columnist and former Miss England judge Monica Grenfell. "Who does she think she's kidding?"

"What she's demonstrating isn't bravery but a shocking lack of self-control," she wrote. "Instead of flaunting her figure, Chloe ought to own up to the truth. She is fat and she got that way by over-eating."

The visceral reaction to the model's rotund bikini-clad photo underscores the confusion and complexity in the ongoing debate over weight on and off the runway.

Marshall is far outside the norm in fashion, which critics charge encourage anorexia in teens. At the same time, childhood obesity is reaching record proportions in many Western countries.

Marshall responded to Grenfell's skewer as a publicity stunt, claiming that she does, indeed, exercise regularly and eat a healthy diet, having slimmed down recently to a "normal," 5-feet, 10-inches and 176 pounds.

The pretty brunette has touted herself as a role model for teens and an outspoken critic of the fashion industry's celebration of paper-thin models.

Self-Hate and Anorexia

"It is a shame that this kind of criticism could give young women complexes that force them into self-hate and anorexia," Marshall said in a prepared statement.

The Miss England pageant is a welcoming platform for plus-size girls because the winner is chosen in part by the public.

"We don't deal with catwalk models, and we always encourage them to eat correctly and not to lose weight," Angie Beasley, Miss England Pageant director, told ABC News. "They are judged also on personality, confidence, beauty, and they also have to be photogenic."

The model has heralded her success on the catwalk as a vindication for all young girls who fret about their body image. But Grenfell claims she is a "terrible role model" and shouldn't win the title.

"It would send an appalling  and very dangerous  message to other young women that it's OK to be fat," the writer said. "Chloe is a stark reminder that obesity is now virtually normal in our society  and we should all be hanging our heads in shame."

Fashion critics this side of the Atlantic are just as tough. When the tabloids got hold of an unflattering photo of "America's Top Model" host Tyra Banks, whose waistline had expanded, they screamed, "America's Next Top Waddle" and "Tyra Porkchop."

Backlash against the round-faced ingenue quickly backfired.

"This is absolutely ridiculous," her agent, Model Plus's Stevie Walters, told ABCNews.com. "She's just a large-framed girl. It's an outrage that a woman could say something like this. Meanwhile, everybody is rooting for Chloe."

In fact, Marshall is "perfectly normal," according to Carla Wolper of the Obesity Research Center at St. Luke's Hospital in New York City.

'Not Obese at All'

The British press cited the model's body mass index (BMI)  a key indicator of healthy weight  at 26.03. Wolper, a research associate with a doctorate in nutrition, said Marshall is, "not obese at all."

Body mass index is a measure of an adult's body fat based on height and weight. The normal range of BMI for a woman of Marshall's height and weight is between 20 and 25, according to Wolper. A BMI of 30 indicates obesity.

An estimated 65 percent of all Americans are considered obese. Britain, too is struggling with a childhood diabetes epidemic and the perils of anorexia.

The European fashion industry has been lambasted about the anorexic look of its models, but some industry observers wonder if the top houses will ever embrace the big-is-beautiful look.

Italy has applied weight limits and required some its models to carry medical certificates, proving they are healthy enough for the catwalk. In both Britain and in France, government campaigns have pushed for more regulation, believing celebrity-worshipping teens are vulnerable to anorexia.

Anorexia is not as prevalent as obesity, according to Wolper, but the psychiatric disorder kills 40 percent of its victims.

Defending the model's weight, provided she does not progressively gain more, Wolper countered that the Daily Mail critic "doesn't like the way [Marshall] looks."

But Grenfell insists, "It's a total fallacy that young girls are being pressured into near-starving themselves into being too thin. Take a look around you and you will see that the total reverse is true. Teenage girls aren't in danger of falling victim to an epidemic of anorexia  but of obesity."

One of her readers agreed. Suzy of Glasgow, who describes herself as 5-foot, 8-inches tall and a size 10, told the newspaper that she has to struggle to be fit, running 5 kilometers a day and avoiding fast food.

"It makes me mad when people like Chloe are allowed to glamorize obesity, and even worse, make it look like a mentally and physically healthier alternative to watching your weight," she wrote.

Still, Marshall's agent insisted the model's mother had played a key role in making sure her daughter followed a healthy regimen.

"I think what happened with her is she was bullied a bit at school," said agent Walters. "Her mother reacted well: 'Listen, darling, you have to be happy in your own skin.' Chloe is happy and she doesn't feel embarrassed in the least."

[Liesje]

Originally posted by anitram

And again, to me this has to do with health and how you feel moreso than how you look. Granted getting thin may be the reason most people hit the gym, but overall it should be about health. When you're carrying an extra 30 lbs, that's hard on your body.

I guess I missed this thread the first time, but I agree with this and pretty much everything else Martina has said, except I'm not nearly as much of a gym rat (but I am active with my dogs and I REALLY like to vacuum, which can be quite the work out!). I've lost 25 lbs since New Year's and quite honestly, I'm sick of people giving me CRAP about it. You'd think people would be supportive and encouraging but no. Just because to someone else I looked "fine" doesn't mean I felt fine at all. I felt like a fat slug and was ashamed of myself, was depressed, and lacked energy. I'm not doing this to be rail thin. If I were, there's ways I could do it that don't involve so much healthy eating an exercise, heh. I do it because I feel better, both physically and emotionally, and that's the bottom line. I like the way I look, I like that I feel more awake and energetic, I like that I can keep up with my pets (who sadly are usually fed better and in far better shape than I am), I like that I sleep well at night, etc etc etc. It is absolutely NO reflection on ANYONE else but myself. Just because *I* do not feel healthy at size 8/10 does not mean I'm discriminating against those that are. My sis-in-law is a size 10 but she is thinner than I am and she runs freaking marathons! What works for someone else doesn't always work for everyone else. In high school I was a competitive gymnast, working out several hours a day. I haven't grown since I was 13 years old so there's no reason I should have to be 25 lbs heavier now than I was then. Of course I can't work out 3 hours a day now so I will never have the same level of toning that I did then, but I know what it felt like to be really healthy and that's all I want. I'm just sick of people getting on my case about it. Telling me I look fine does not make me physically FEEL healthier. Not to mention, I am happy with the results and I like what I'm doing. I went to a health screening last week where I met with our Director of Health and Wellness. He went over my weight, BMI, glucose, HDL, cholesterol, and blood pressure and I was at optimal levels in every category. That's the type of thing I'm looking for. That makes me happier than just the number on the scale. My BMI is within the appropriate range, not "too low".

You can definitely be a gym rat or just and active person in general and not be rail thin looking like a concentration camp survivor.

I try not to be an overly critical person (well, I am overly critical with myself) but I want to be an honest person. Just because the "average" in this country is a size whatever does not mean the average is optimal or healthy. Phil has been doing the same sorts of things I have and he has lost 45 lbs. His Dr. said he was overweight and had high cholesterol (runs in his family). Like Martina said earlier, I can't really BE with a person that is a total slug and is indifferent about their own health. Phil and I like very different activities as far as exercise (he runs outdoors and plays soccer, I run on an elliptical and do conditioning), but we both can appreciate that health is something we are going to take seriously and respect each other by respecting ourselves.

[U2democrat]

Take it from someone who's skinny, there's also reverse weightism.

[Liesje]

Originally posted by U2democrat
Take it from someone who's skinny, there's also reverse weightism.

No kidding! Now I've never been in your position, but I have a few friends who are and it really really disturbs me when I overhear people joking about eating disorders. In what context is it ever OK or funny to just walk up to someone and be like "ooo are you anorexic or something?"