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Old 08-10-2006, 12:54 AM   #21
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Just another non-story to get a rise out of people's puritanical sides.
Go check out the Girls Gone Wild thread for more evidence of Puritanicalism.
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Old 08-10-2006, 08:37 AM   #22
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I don't think it's puritanical or prudish to not want music to perpetuate objectified and degrading/demeaning images of women and men and relationships, sexual or otherwise, between women and men. That's just my personal viewpoint. I hardly believe that music is the biggest influence in all of that, but it is one influence. Of course people, including teens, can listen to that and not have it affect them in any significant way in their views or their sexual development. When all is said and done I do still believe the whole issue is something worth examining, as is any cultural element that portrays humans and human relationships. Doesn't mean I want to censor anything or that I'm puritanical. I listen to Kanye West and I like his music. I even like some Eminem and other rap songs, but as a female I am troubled by the way women are portrayed in some of that music. It's all still just basically music/noise to me, I don't get all up in arms over it But if I was a parent I would still be concerned about what my kids were listening to, obviously I would combine that with good communication with them about sex and gender roles and respect.



Boston Herald

A Snoop Dogg caricature leads two women around on leashes, reprimanding his “bitches” and cleaning up after one of them when she relieves herself on the floor in an MTV2 cartoon that aired Saturday.
Meanwhile, more than 3.3 million viewers watched Sunday’s premiere of VH1’s “Flavor of Love 2” (online at vspot.vh1.com), which featured two women in a fistfight and another woman defecating on the floor, all while vying for the love and affection of 1980s rapper Flavor Flav.
It’s meant to be funny.
But Deb Farrar-Parkman, an Emmy-winning producer, comedian and organizer of Boston’s ColorStruck: Women of Color in Comedy, called these scenes the “lowest attempts at humor I’ve ever seen.”
Farrar-Parkman said she thinks about the impact her comedy and that of others has on her daughters, ages 15 and 21.
“It’s impossible to laugh off the images of women that permeate the media these days: the so-called b’s in chains, on leashes and taking dumps on the floor,” she said. “For the most part I can laugh at almost anything, but the total degradation of women is not funny.”
The animated clip in question remained online yesterday. A statement from MTV Networks President Christina Norman, herself black, defended the MTV2 series “Where My Dogs At?” as parody.
Snoop Dogg showed up to the 2003 MTV Video Music Awards with two women on leashes, then duplicated the stunt in the video for 50 Cent’s “P.I.M.P.”
“We certainly do not condone Snoop’s actions and the goal was to take aim at that incident for its insensitivity and outrageousness,” the MTV statement said.
National Organization for Women vice president Latifa Lyles questioned MTV’s defense.
“There’s a difference in reporting something that happened and glamorizing it,” Lyles said. “It’s definitely not something to laugh off. So much of what our young women and girls get from cultural cues comes from these mass media outlets, especially MTV.”
Media watchdog group Industry Ears asked MTV to take down the MTV2 clip. But group co-founder Paul Porter said “Flavor of Love” is more hurtful toward women.
“It keeps reinforcing the same negative stereotypes,” Porter said.
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Old 08-10-2006, 07:06 PM   #23
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^ I agree with MrsSpringsteen. The terms puritanical or prudish are often thrown out to (i) imply that they are somehow bad character traits, and (ii) to avoid any discussion that such things can cause harm.
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Old 08-10-2006, 11:52 PM   #24
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MrsSpringsteen,
Excellent post.
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Old 08-11-2006, 12:19 AM   #25
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I think maybe if parents spent more time trying to raise thoughtful children who are able to participate in independent, critical thinking, and less time worrying about MTV, we'd be better off.

If you are capable of discerning meaning in lyrics, then you can, like MrsS mentions, be troubled by some of the lyrics but that doesn't mean you are indoctrinated by them like an idiot.

There are stupid teenagers who will grow up to be stupid adults and smart teenagers who will grow up to be smart adults. What their parents do in their homes and how much they push their kids to get educated and to become thoughtful young adults has infinitely more to do with how they turn out than what Paris Hilton is bleating out on the radio.
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Old 08-18-2006, 12:36 PM   #26
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Another study I read about, interesting

(AFP)US boys hooked on gospel, techno and pop are more at risk of HIV infection than devotees of other musical styles, including "bling, bling" hip hop, according to a new study.

Musical tastes may offer clues to rates of HIV infection, said researchers who tried to decipher the complex behaviors and attitudes of young men in the United States, at a global AIDS conference.

The music industry often says there is no connection between music and sexual behavior, but hundreds of young men interviewed in New York this year fiercely disagreed, said lead researcher Miguel Munoz-Laboy of Columbia University.

They said images of scantily-clad women in submissive roles in hip hop music videos, for example, had a "real impact on their lives," he said.

"There is a connection. You see it in the way people dance, dress and it has an impact on their sexuality," said Munoz-Laboy.

The researchers peered into male youth culture to help develop HIV prevention programs that target this demographic they say is too often neglected by health strategists.

They looked at three New York neighborhoods and interviewed boys aged 16 to 21 about their listening tastes and attitudes toward condom use and sexual activities.

"We often blame youth for their behavior without understanding it," Munoz-Laboy said. "(But) there is a complex story about sexuality, masculinity and culture here."

"It's clear that current schemes are not working," he said.

"It's very hard to get heterosexual young men into HIV prevention programs even though we demonize them a lot for pregnancies and passing on STDs (sexually transmitted diseases) to their girlfriends."

The study did not imply listening to certain types of music causes HIV infection but simply found links between genres and risk factors.

A behavioral analysis divided participants into two musical groups: hip hop, reggae, reggaeton, rap and rhythm and blues; and rock, heavy metal, pop, techno, electronic and gospel.

"Kids would be appalled that we grouped them this way, but this is how they mapped out in the mathematical analysis," Munoz-Laboy said.

Researchers also distinguished between two styles of hip hop: the "bling, bling" hip hop that values fancy cars, money, and many girlfriends; and "real" hip hop that tells of urban youth stricken by violence, poverty and drug abuse.

They found boys who listened to hip hop music were more likely to have vaginal intercourse and had more partners, but boys from church or New York club scenes (techno, pop, electronic) took the most sexual risks.

"Boys who listened to hip hop had more sex and more partners, but it did not impact condom use," said Munoz-Laboy. "Those who are part of religious culture or the club scene used condoms inconsistently."
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Old 08-18-2006, 12:52 PM   #27
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
"Boys who listened to hip hop had more sex and more partners, but it did not impact condom use," said Munoz-Laboy. "Those who are part of religious culture or the club scene used condoms inconsistently."
You know why I think that is, at least in reference to religious culture? Because there many Christians kids who don't "plan" on having sex. But sometimes, when they get in the "heat of the moment", they find out their flesh can win the day over their values.
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Old 08-18-2006, 01:01 PM   #28
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Or maybe sex is so "taboo" (not the word I'm really looking for, because I wouldn't want to say that is true in every case of any religious beliefs and their relation to sex and decisions about sex) for some of them, because of what they have been taught, that they don't even purchase condoms or use them at all. Of course I would never discount at all that some "religious" teens have beliefs of their own about sex (carefully considered and deeply personal), and I completely respect those who can hold onto those beliefs, especially in this culture. But if they do have sex for whatever reason, they need to be prepared to be protected from HIV and other STDs, not to mention pregnancy.

Desire and lust and all that can always win over values and whatever decisions teens have previously made, but ultimately they need to be protected if that happens.
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Old 08-18-2006, 01:05 PM   #29
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As a teenager, I can tell you music doesn't have anything to do with it. The people you hang out with and your parents have everything to do with it. It would make more sense to note that your crowd's music tastes rub off on you. You hang out with people who think things like having to be a pimp and women being objects, the music is just a small part of who you are, and who they are.
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Old 08-19-2006, 05:58 AM   #30
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
As a teenager, I can tell you music doesn't have anything to do with it. The people you hang out with and your parents have everything to do with it. It would make more sense to note that your crowd's music tastes rub off on you. You hang out with people who think things like having to be a pimp and women being objects, the music is just a small part of who you are, and who they are.
As a guy approaching the end of his teenage years, I can really testify to this: the people you hang out with and the values and beliefs your parents impart to you are FAR MORE influential than the media. Personally, I'm very lucky to have a great group of freidns and I've never felt pressured to have sex, drink, take drugs etc.
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Old 08-19-2006, 08:55 AM   #31
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

You know why I think that is, at least in reference to religious culture? Because there many Christians kids who don't "plan" on having sex. But sometimes, when they get in the "heat of the moment", they find out their flesh can win the day over their values.
Or perhaps it's that Christian young people don't use condoms because to use condoms is to "committ" to what you're doing. As long as you're not going out and buying (or getting them free from the school nurse) condoms, you can tell yourself you're not really going to have sex (even when you know good and well that's exactly what you're going to do). This kind of self-deception is quite common in all of us, and having a condom interfers with it.

A couple other random thoughts on this topic:

The hostility to rap to me is analogous to rock in the 50's/60's. It pisses parents off, they don't understand it and call it "noise", it's sexy and considered explicit by the old heads, and worst of all it's---shhh "black."

On the other hand, I definitely have a problem with a lot of the lyrics in todays music especially in much of rap and hip hop. With my students, I encourage them to be aware of what's in the music they listen to and challenge them as to whether those are values they want to represent (especially the young women who are often as big fans as the guys).

I also think it's rather disingenuous to argue that music has no affect on us. (Though granted when I was a teenager I made the same lame argument). If, we use music to get us "in the mood" whether it be for working out, driving, even going to war, not to mention romance, it's a bit absurd to then turn around that music "has no affect." I think you have to make an active effort to "disregard" negative messages in music, otherwise they will have an impact.
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Old 08-19-2006, 09:02 AM   #32
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Or perhaps it's that Christian young people don't use condoms because to use condoms is to "committ" to what you're doing. As long as you're not going out and buying (or getting them free from the school nurse) condoms, you can tell yourself you're not really going to have sex (even when you know good and well that's exactly what you're going to do). This kind of self-deception is quite common in all of us, and having a condom interfers with it.

A couple other random thoughts on this topic:

The hostility to rap to me is analogous to rock in the 50's/60's. It pisses parents off, they don't understand it and call it "noise", it's sexy and considered explicit by the old heads, and worst of all it's---shhh "black."

On the other hand, I definitely have a problem with a lot of the lyrics in todays music especially in much of rap and hip hop. With my students, I encourage them to be aware of what's in the music they listen to and challenge them as to whether those are values they want to represent (especially the young women who are often as big fans as the guys).

I also think it's rather disingenuous to argue that music has no affect on us. (Though granted when I was a teenager I made the same lame argument). If, we use music to get us "in the mood" whether it be for working out, driving, even going to war, not to mention romance, it's a bit absurd to then turn around that music "has no affect." I think you have to make an active effort to "disregard" negative messages in music, otherwise they will have an impact.
I have a problem with rap. I'm a teenager.

Speaking, not singing, over some pre-recorded beats isn't in anyway music. Music involves instruments and talent, ability to songwrite. I know a lot of rappers don't write their own music, which is why people like Eminem actually get respect. But still, the backing track of beats isn't music, half of it was made on a computer.

I don't even have to go into the lyrics to dislike it.
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Old 08-19-2006, 09:18 AM   #33
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I have a problem with rap. I'm a teenager.

Speaking, not singing, over some pre-recorded beats isn't in anyway music. Music involves instruments and talent, ability to songwrite. I know a lot of rappers don't write their own music, which is why people like Eminem actually get respect. But still, the backing track of beats isn't music, half of it was made on a computer.

I don't even have to go into the lyrics to dislike it.
Well, you're certainly entitled to your tastes. I don't listen to much rap myself. But whether something is music or not is in the ear of the listener. I'd be tempted to say a lot of speed metal is not music, and likewise with virtually everything PJ Harvey has done. And The Arcade Fire. But I'm not going to say that. Instead I'm just going to say I don't like the aforementioned music. Can't stand it. That, I think should be enough, for anyone. Is it really necessary to deny it's legitamcy as music?

But my point was a broad one about the attraction of many young teens, particularly white teens to rap music. My point was that rap has replaced rock as the music of rebellion on a societal level. Obviously there are many who do not fit this broad profile, and you would be one of the exceptions. I'm sure there were a lot of kids in the 50's who didn't care for rock and roll too.
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Old 08-19-2006, 02:34 PM   #34
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Old 08-19-2006, 05:23 PM   #35
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Originally posted by maycocksean


Or perhaps it's that Christian young people don't use condoms because to use condoms is to "committ" to what you're doing. As long as you're not going out and buying (or getting them free from the school nurse) condoms, you can tell yourself you're not really going to have sex (even when you know good and well that's exactly what you're going to do).
I'm sorry, but I don't think that attitude is very prevalent, if it exists at all. I don't see how that kind of self-deception benefits anyone, or even the purpose of it, or even that anyone would prescribe to it. Honestly, that kind of self deception doesn't make any sense to me. If someone knows full well they're going to do it, then they want to do it. Why even say "I'm not going to do it", and then not buy a condom because of that?
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Old 08-19-2006, 06:02 PM   #36
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old news in my eye's , ive suspected this for a very long time.

i blame MTV.
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Old 08-19-2006, 08:29 PM   #37
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I'm sorry, but I don't think that attitude is very prevalent, if it exists at all. I don't see how that kind of self-deception benefits anyone, or even the purpose of it, or even that anyone would prescribe to it. Honestly, that kind of self deception doesn't make any sense to me. If someone knows full well they're going to do it, then they want to do it. Why even say "I'm not going to do it", and then not buy a condom because of that?
Really? Well, then perhaps I, and not Paul, am chief of sinners because this kind of self-deception is very familiar to me, and I'd always assumed it was human nature. It's my feeling we lie to ourselves all the time--it's what makes it easier to lie to others. It's purpose and benefits are that it enables us to start down a "slippery slope" all the while telling ourselves that we're not really going to end up in trouble. And in this kind of self-deception, you don't really "know full well"--that's part of the self-subterfuge that obtaining a condom would destroy.

As a Christian, of course I think one of the things God can do for us, (if we let Him) is get us to be honest with ourselves.
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Old 08-19-2006, 09:08 PM   #38
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My son is 28, we talk about how women are protrayed almost a daily basis. He has 2 young daughters. I watch Vh1 and MTV, as much as I can stand. just too try to keep up..
What I see, for the most part is disgusting. However I do see some good videos in the very early morning hours - on VH1 - when I can't sleep.
But this shit from the PussyCat Dolls, Fergie and even Beyonce, who, I would have thought, would be beyond this, and yet there she is in the mix with the other women who are allowing themselves to be objectified.
Please - these women should be representing something else.. Themselves!! YOU ARE STONGER THAN THIS..
Stand up!! damn it .. you don't have to go there..
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Old 08-20-2006, 01:58 PM   #39
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Really? Well, then perhaps I, and not Paul, am chief of sinners because this kind of self-deception is very familiar to me, and I'd always assumed it was human nature. It's my feeling we lie to ourselves all the time--it's what makes it easier to lie to others. It's purpose and benefits are that it enables us to start down a "slippery slope" all the while telling ourselves that we're not really going to end up in trouble. And in this kind of self-deception, you don't really "know full well"--that's part of the self-subterfuge that obtaining a condom would destroy.

As a Christian, of course I think one of the things God can do for us, (if we let Him) is get us to be honest with ourselves.
Maybe I'm not even understanding what you're talking about then.
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Old 08-21-2006, 02:28 PM   #40
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You know why I think that is, at least in reference to religious culture? Because there many Christians kids who don't "plan" on having sex. But sometimes, when they get in the "heat of the moment", they find out their flesh can win the day over their values.




wouldn't you want them to have a condom in this situation?

let me ask you this: what's more troubling to you -- 16 year olds having sex, or 16 year olds getting pregnant and/or contracting some nasty STD?
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