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Old 06-18-2004, 11:26 PM   #1
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New Abu Ghraib Torture Video's Released

Allright now that I have your attention.

A new video has been released from Saddam Husseins Iraq, It contains what anybody would adequetly be described as torture (not some standing around naked abuse) and what I would say warrents a serious intervention and see those who commited it hanged.

I would not recomend that anybody watch it but if you do I hope that it reinforces an understanding of what true torture is and what abuse is. This made me sick (literally) before it finished and frankly I would advise against watching it even if you think your tough. I do strongly suggesting reading the article posted though as it does describe it without the gore.

An article that outlines the content of the video may be found here. (I would recomend reading it)
http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0406170846.asp

A link to the video can be found here (**This is not a challenge or dare for anybody to watch it, it is simply posting a link so that if anybody must see that can**)
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...raib_Torturers

So next time you see pictures of hooded Iraqi prisoners standing on boxes having dogs bark at them please consider that those responsible are being punished and real crimes of the old regime have been stopped permanently. Perspective is a virtue that one can gain through experience.
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Old 06-19-2004, 01:15 AM   #2
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Ok once again you are comparing a dictating regime to that of a democracy...why are you comparing these two? We should hold ourselves to a much higher(I mean a much much higher) standard than you are.

Who cares what they did. What matters is how we are handling ourselves. If we are the police, the occupiers, the model of democracy then we should hold ourselves to a much higher standand then anyone else, especially some low life terrorists. The fact that this administration and so many of its supporters can't see that is beyond me. It sickens me that you would compare us to this. You talk about perspective. This has nothing to do with perspective, it has everything to do with moral and legal rights. Who cares what and how they act? You should act upon how your moral and legal perspective is set forth and nothing else. Neither my mother or my God ever said to act according to you enemy. Therefore I never will.
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Old 06-19-2004, 01:47 AM   #3
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Re: New Abu Ghraib Torture Video's Released

Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer

So next time you see pictures of hooded Iraqi prisoners standing on boxes having dogs bark at them please consider that those responsible are being punished and real crimes of the old regime have been stopped permanently. Perspective is a virtue that one can gain through experience.

The people responsible are being punished? This includes the
CO's that ordered this ?
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Old 06-19-2004, 01:56 AM   #4
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I am simply saying that the vast majority of what went on at the hands of US soldiers is abuse and not torture, if I hear Senator Kennedy saying that Saddams torture chambers have just reopened under new management then I think that the truth about the old regime must come out in full and people have a chance to test their conviction for that argument. I am not saying that what we did was in any way whatsoever justified because it isn't, it is criminal and must be punished to the full extent of the law. We must remember that the vast majority of the anti-war movement feels that the action has caused more suffering than the old regime did, looking at statistics cannot seem to convey this (we have a net saving of 100,000 lives today in Iraq because of the war) therefore I think that a bit of historical documentation might.

The perspective that I am talking about is to understand what we are fighting against, it is all well and good to make mention of rape rooms and torture chambers but it is quite another to see these crimes. I think it is obvious to many that the anti-war movement siezes upon Abu Ghraib abuses by US soldiers as a reason that the US should never have gotten involved, the inference being that somehow the Iraqi prisoners are worse off now than they were under Saddam Hussein but this Historical Document should attest to the fact they are wrong. This document is an explanation point on the reasons that the war was right, it is why we cannot stand by and let these things go on (don't even get me started on what we should be doing to N-Korea and the Sudanese regimes).

We do and must hold ourselves to higher standards and this is demonstrated by the political response to and the general media treatment of the Abuse Scandal. We also must balance this with what we know about our enemy, you cannot win a war like this if you beat yourself for the abuses of a few but ignore the crimes of the enemy, the public will simpy loose sight of why we fight and what is at stake if we loose.
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Old 06-19-2004, 10:10 AM   #5
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Most of the things the Americans did to those Iraqis is childish schoolyard games compared to actual torture. Not that it's okay, it's not. But it is hardly 'torture' in the category of what Saddam did or the beheading or bomb attacks on civilians. While it was wrong and shouldn't have happened, I do believe the antics at the Iraqi prison have been manifested by some for political reasons.

Pillowcases and panties on head vs. head cut off

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Old 06-19-2004, 11:06 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Who cares what they did.
If we all agree that the war on Iraq was justified, then this statement is meaningful.
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Old 06-19-2004, 11:34 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I do strongly suggesting reading the article posted though as it does describe it without the gore.
I haven't watched the video you linked to. I did however read the first two paragraphs describing it in the article you linked to and I couldn't read anymore -- I'm not sure I'd describe that article as being "without the gore" because the descriptions are very detailed and graphic. I don't think anyone has ever been in any doubt about the violence and repression that characterised Saddam's regime, but if they were then that article ought to convince them. What happened there is absolutely horrifying and should be condemned by any right-minded person.

I think we should be ashamed of ourselves when our best defence against crimes committed by our soldiers is to say "well, Saddam's crimes were worse." I don't know about you, but I want my government and the army they command held to a higher standard than that of a barbaric dictator. If our moral standards are based on comparing ourselves with Saddam Hussein, well, we might as well give up right now.
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Old 06-19-2004, 11:49 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
Most of the things the Americans did to those Iraqis is childish schoolyard games compared to actual torture. Not that it's okay, it's not. But it is hardly 'torture' in the category of what Saddam did or the beheading or bomb attacks on civilians. While it was wrong and shouldn't have happened, I do believe the antics at the Iraqi prison have been manifested by some for political reasons.

Pillowcases and panties on head vs. head cut off


Comparing the torture, and yes it was torture that occured in
that prison, with innocent American's being beheaded is like
comparing apples to oranges.
The fact that a couple of the prisoners were beaten to death,
seems to be forgotten now.
Did the events at the prison cause these beheadings? Probably not, but it sure gave those terrorists the proof they needed that Americans are the "Great Satan."
The whole purpose of their non-toture fun was to break down
the prisoners anyway and anyhow for info. I am convinced this was a CIA and/or Army Intelligence operatoion. Will those higher-ups be acounted for, I doubt it.
The fact they took photos, may have been part of their orders
as well. We're going to show these photos to your family, etc.
I completely agree that these execitions are horrible. Doens't
mean what went on with Iraqi prisoners in that prison was
just soldiers having "fun and games," and let's now sweep this
under the rug. Afterall, we didn't behead any of them.
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Old 06-19-2004, 01:00 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


If we all agree that the war on Iraq was justified, then this statement is meaningful.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but the point I was trying to make is that what they did needs to be left out of the equation when looking at what the U.S. did. Take a look at what the U.S., not the environment. We are not allowed to lower our standards according to environment.
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Old 06-19-2004, 01:14 PM   #10
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I think your perspective on the anti-war crowd is very uneducated. I haven't seen a vast majority say anything about how we've caused more suffering than Saddam's regime. And I haven't seen anyone use the prisoners abuse as a reason why we shouldn't be there. I'm not sure where you are getting this.

Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer


The perspective that I am talking about is to understand what we are fighting against, it is all well and good to make mention of rape rooms and torture chambers but it is quite another to see these crimes.
Is it? Why must we make mention of this? This was not the reason set forth by our administration as to why we went to war.
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Old 06-19-2004, 11:54 PM   #11
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I was at an Socialist Alliance meeting a fortnight ago and they were laying out the key reasons that the war is wrong and why if the coalition leaves it will be better off, among the other points ("fictitious" CBR weapons, Arab Street etc.) they explicitly stated that the torture in Iraq was worse than what happened under Saddam and used a quote from an Iraqi saying that he would rather die than be humiliated. I should said that some in the anti-war movement feel this way rather than majority.
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Old 06-20-2004, 04:28 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees

I think we should be ashamed of ourselves when our best defence against crimes committed by our soldiers is to say "well, Saddam's crimes were worse." I don't know about you, but I want my government and the army they command held to a higher standard than that of a barbaric dictator. If our moral standards are based on comparing ourselves with Saddam Hussein, well, we might as well give up right now.


Actually, I'd like to see the "Saddam Hussein defense" used in the courtroom. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, sure my client murdered that store clerk. But at least he didn't use nerve gas on his own people!"
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Old 06-20-2004, 05:23 AM   #13
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yeah right

Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
Pillowcases and panties on head

Oh really?
No rapes, beating several people to death and letting MPs "softing" prisoners before interviews, forcing prisoners in various sexual positions and masturbation, forcing them to walk naked in front of others, hiding their food in toilets and let it there "if they want to eat", no forcing them to stand for hours or tying them up for hours, blasting loud music, letting male prisoners being interviewed by female soldiers?
(do you know the huge demeaning nature of nudity in the Arab/muslim world? and their relationship to sexuality?)

POWs and the Geneva convention? Common sense not to threat human beings like that?

The West ought to know better, that's the whole point. No way can we excuse it by saying "they were worse" (some things are worse than dying IMO) - in fact, by US actions in Abu Ghraib the West has lost ANY right to claim their moral superiority.
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Old 06-20-2004, 06:09 AM   #14
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Quote:
by US actions in Abu Ghraib the West has lost ANY right to claim their moral superiority.
Really? Does the "west" sudenly become as evil as men who behead their enemies for the sadistic pleasure of it. Is the west guilty of treating its women worse than animals? Are we now as bad as men who shell schools and blow up busloads of children in Iraq for want of chaos?

I strongly believe that some values we have in the west are superior to those that came before and that still exist around the world, I also believe that this abuse scandal has shown how we deal with these things makes our systems and morals better, you show me one instance in the arab world where an deed like this brings about such widespread self-condemnation and strong internal reflection. There are many in the muslim world that applaud mass murder and yet the majority here remain silent or give them support in the name of political correctness but will leap up and down for months when we have a minor infraction of human rights (masturbation, nudity and demeening behaviour- sounds like a hazing ceremony: amputations, electrocution, execution - sounds like torture). The way we deal with these problems shows the world that we are better and the reason is because we will fix the problems, the west is not inherently better because we are white or built on jedeo-christian values, we are better because for the better part of 500 years we have allowed progression in our values and knowledge. I know that there is a difference between abuse at a prison and the honour killing of a woman in Jordan and saying that they are equally as bad does not make it so. We must spread the values that allowed the west to suceed around the world things like secularism, individual rights, freedom of ownership. It is these simple concepts that make the difference between an open progressive society and a dystopian theocratic dictatorship

If I had a choice between abuse (that is what it is, it is NOT torture) at the hands of US guards and torture at the hands of Sadaams thugs I can uneqevically say I would rather be abused, No matter how demeaning it is for a muslim man to be seen nude seen nude by a woman it does not make it anywhere near the level of having your hand sliced open with a scalpal slowly while you are strapped to a chair or having your fingers crudely cut off with a butchers knife (the thing is that sometimes one hit isn't enough, they have to take another whack at it).

I think that if you sit and watch that video then your postmodern moral relativist opinion about the west having no moral superiority when compared with the likes of Baathist thugs would be profoundly shaken and you may be able to distinguish between torture and abuse.
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Old 06-20-2004, 07:55 AM   #15
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A_Wanderer:
Has the US government become so bad that we have to show the western people that the USA isn't the big satan and not the worst one in torture?
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Old 06-20-2004, 07:59 AM   #16
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Don't twist my words.
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Old 06-20-2004, 08:13 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer


Really? Does the "west" sudenly become as evil as men who behead their enemies for the sadistic pleasure of it. Is the west guilty of treating its women worse than animals? Are we now as bad as men who shell schools and blow up busloads of children in Iraq for want of chaos?

I never said that. Reread my post.

I strongly believe that some values we have in the west are superior to those that came before and that still exist around the world, I also believe that this abuse scandal has shown how we deal with these things makes our systems and morals better, you show me one instance in the arab world where an deed like this brings about such widespread self-condemnation and strong internal reflection.

Exactly. That's why Abu Ghraib are inexcusable and unforgivable and West can't preach to others about democracy anymore, particularly US with its foreign policy past.

There are many in the muslim world that applaud mass murder and yet the majority here remain silent or give them support in the name of political correctness but will leap up and down for months when we have a minor infraction of human rights (masturbation, nudity and demeening behaviour- sounds like a hazing ceremony: amputations, electrocution, execution - sounds like torture).

You have to differ between something like Al Kaida and something like a nation's fight for freedom, such as Palestine, Checnia, N. Ireland. I do not support car bombs any more than you do, but I also don't support years and decades of opression. To me, things in Abu Ghraib WERE torture.

The way we deal with these problems shows the world that we are better and the reason is because we will fix the problems, the west is not inherently better because we are white or built on jedeo-christian values, we are better because for the better part of 500 years we have allowed progression in our values and knowledge.

How did we deal with it? We still don't know who approved and who knew of the scandal prior the photos came out.
We are better? Yep, the white race really can be proud of what it did to native inhabitants of both Americas, Australia and Africa and how it robbed them of wealth, goods and their future.


I know that there is a difference between abuse at a prison and the honour killing of a woman in Jordan and saying that they are equally as bad does not make it so. We must spread the values that allowed the west to suceed around the world things like secularism, individual rights, freedom of ownership. It is these simple concepts that make the difference between an open progressive society and a dystopian theocratic dictatorship

Fundamentally both of those are wrong. Semantics-dancing around it won't make it better, and Western actions like Abu Ghraib certainly won't help us convicing other to embrace our values.

If I had a choice between abuse (that is what it is, it is NOT torture) at the hands of US guards and torture at the hands of Sadaams thugs I can uneqevically say I would rather be abused, No matter how demeaning it is for a muslim man to be seen nude seen nude by a woman it does not make it anywhere near the level of having your hand sliced open with a scalpal slowly while you are strapped to a chair or having your fingers crudely cut off with a butchers knife (the thing is that sometimes one hit isn't enough, they have to take another whack at it).

Well that's your opinion, but consider psychological pains are often far worse than phisycal ones.

I think that if you sit and watch that video then your postmodern moral relativist opinion about the west having no moral superiority when compared with the likes of Baathist thugs would be profoundly shaken and you may be able to distinguish between torture and abuse.
No, I don't think I will and again, we can not claim moral superiority if we do the very things that were supposed to never happen AGAIN. It was torture even if you don't want to call it that.

Last but not least, if the West treated POWs (70-90% of them innocent if we recall the Red Cross report) like that, what do you think will happen to Western soldiers/mercenaries that will get caught?
"They're animals but we're human" logic doesn't fly anymore.
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Old 06-20-2004, 08:17 AM   #18
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Quote:
we can not claim moral superiority if we do the very things that were supposed to never happen AGAIN. It was torture even if you don't want to call it that.
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Old 06-20-2004, 08:24 AM   #19
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You reminded me why I stopped coming here - because some can't stand the slightest critisicm of US policies.
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Old 06-20-2004, 08:46 AM   #20
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I don't mind criticism of US policy at all, frankly I think that quite a bit of it has been a cock up but I implore you to distinguish between abuse and torture, there is a definite difference and it does a disservice to victims of torture to have their suffering placed on the same level as the abuse by US prison guards in Iraq.

We are NOT doing the same stuff that was commited by Saddams thugs what was done was a lot more minor and those responsible are getting punished for what they did and the investigations will only continue. I think it is a very ugly position to think that because of the abuse at the hands of a few individuals the entire cause of freedom and peace around the world should loose its importance.

What was done was wrong.

It constitutes abuse and not torture, it is very dificult to distinguish between the two because there is no straitforward definitions, the geneva conventions do not explicitly state what degrees of "torture" there are but when dealt with in most cases it is clear cut.

Responsibility rests with the CO's at the prison itself, the buck stops there and they are responsible for what goes on in the prison. What you see there is a failure of leadership and discipline more than anything else.

I am not personally responsible for abuse nor is "the west" therefore there should be no problem encouraging the concept of liberty around the world even though it may be an outdated ethnocentric concept that is incompatible with others way of life to some.

Western civilization has given more to the peoples of the world than anything else in the history of mankind.

Aboriginal peoples were not all good and the British Empire was not all bad

Everybody in the world deserves to have peace and freedom however they are not a given, they must be fought for and protected, what our soldiers are doing in Iraq is something I am proud of and the crimes of the few do not smear the good of the many.
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