Neo-Nazi protest and riots in Ohio

[MissVelvetDress_75]

[q]Nazi Gathering Turns Violent; 6 Arrested

1 hour, 14 minutes ago

TOLEDO, Ohio - A crowd that gathered to protest a white supremacists' march Saturday turned violent, throwing baseball-sized rocks at police and vandalizing vehicles.

Six people were arrested and police, fire and media vehicles were damaged, Police Chief Mike Navarre said.

At least two dozen members of the Roanoke, Va.-based National Socialist Movement, which calls itself "America's Nazi Party," gathered at a city park to march under police protection. Organizers said they were demonstrating against black gangs that were harassing white residents.

The march was canceled, and the violence broke out about a quarter mile away from the park along the planned route.

Keith White, a black resident, criticized city officials for initially allowing the march.

"They let them come here and expect this not to happen?" said White, 29.

Two hours after authorities called off the march, 150 officers in helicopters and cruisers and on foot, bicycles and horses continued to chase bands of youths.[/q]

 

[the iron horse]

"Keith White, a black resident, criticized city officials for initially allowing the march."


I do not agree with the Nazis, but I do believe that all of us should have freedom of speech and the right to protest.

I'm just a fool who still thinks the Bill of Rights is a good idea.

 

[melon]

"Keith White, a black resident, criticized city officials for initially allowing the march."

I do not agree with the Nazis, but I do believe that all of us should have freedom of speech and the right to protest.

I'm just a fool who still thinks the Bill of Rights is a good idea.

Your response is very oversimplistic. You have to understand that white supremacist groups are highly duplicitous. Their strategy over the last few years have been to appear highly reasoned on television, but it is merely a ruse to obscure their irrational hatred.

The same reasoning goes with this "march." They never once intended to actually go through with this march; it has been their tactic to head into minority neighborhoods and have their mere presence to incite a riot. As such, even without the "march," the presence of a riot is a "victory." In fact, as they were being escorted out of the city for their protection, that's exactly what they declared: "victory."

In light of that, it is my view that they should no longer be allowed to march. "Freedom of speech" is a constitutionally protected right, yes. However, it is not a constitutionally-protected right to incite riots, and that's what these neo-Nazis have been doing in every city they visit.

Now just for the record, the city of Toledo did not support the Nazis' presence here; a permit was never issued. On the other hand, they did follow past constitutional precedent and did not prohibit them from marching.

Melon

 

[Dreadsox]

I disagree with the decision to allow them to march on the sidewalks.

The report I read said that they did not get a permit so they were allowed to march on the sidewalk.

This is clearly an attempt to circumvent the law on the chance that the permit was denied.

I am pretty sure the city would have had the right to determine the parade route, which would have forced the marchers to not be allowed into an area of town where trouble would erupt.

Walking on the sidewalks, is not acceptable, and should have been stopped.

 

[Dreadsox]

I disagree with the decision to allow them to march on the sidewalks.

The report I read said that they did not get a permit so they were allowed to march on the sidewalk.

This is clearly an attempt to circumvent the law on the chance that the permit was denied.

I am pretty sure the city would have had the right to determine the parade route, which would have forced the marchers to not be allowed into an area of town where trouble would erupt.

Walking on the sidewalks, is not acceptable, and should have been stopped.

I am changing my mind having read more...apparently walking on sidewalks is an acceptable way to circumvent the law on permits...

Any clues as to why we seam to find it acceptable that a certain segment of our population uses things like this to destroy the neighborhood? Nazi groups hate more than blacks and I did not read about these other groups attacking police and fireman.

 

[verte76]

I am changing my mind having read more...apparently walking on sidewalks is an acceptable way to circumvent the law on permits...

Any clues as to why we seam to find it acceptable that a certain segment of our population uses things like this to destroy the neighborhood? Nazi groups hate more than blacks and I did not read about these other groups attacking police and fireman.

It's not acceptable to me, and I have no idea why anyone would think that it is. Maybe they just buy the "freedom of speech" argument and are naive about their motives.

 

[Dreadsox]

It's not acceptable to me, and I have no idea why anyone would think that it is. Maybe they just buy the "freedom of speech" argument and are naive about their motives.

Maybe I did not word it correctly....

Their reaction to the Nazi group.....was not directed at the Nazi group....it was directed at police and fireman and local businesses ect....

Catholics and Jews are hated by the neo-Nazi's.....yet.....they are not tearing the neighborhood down.

I guess that was my point.

 

[MissVelvetDress_75]

I wish those who fought back in anger towards the Neo-Nazi's were strong enough to ignore them. Easier said than done. It is a shame that any of this took place.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051017/ap_on_re_us/nazi_march

 

[melon]

Catholics and Jews are hated by the neo-Nazi's.....yet.....they are not tearing the neighborhood down.

I guess that was my point.

Considering I have lived near Toledo most of my life and that I'm working there right now, realize that the Nazis did not march in a Catholic or Jewish neighborhood. In fact, the Nazis did not even go downtown, where crowd control would have been better. They purposely picked a heavily black neighborhood that had a relatively high crime rate.

In other words, the Nazis purposely provoked a bad neighborhood, just so they could sit back and say, "See? Those black gangs really ARE attacking white people." It's really a pity, overall.

Melon

 

[Dreadsox]

Considering I have lived near Toledo most of my life and that I'm working there right now, realize that the Nazis did not march in a Catholic or Jewish neighborhood. In fact, the Nazis did not even go downtown, where crowd control would have been better. They purposely picked a heavily black neighborhood that had a relatively high crime rate.

In other words, the Nazis purposely provoked a bad neighborhood, just so they could sit back and say, "See? Those black gangs really ARE attacking white people." It's really a pity, overall.

Melon

But I go back to the reaction of Kieth:

[Q]Keith White, a black resident, criticized city officials for initially allowing the march.

"They let them come here and expect this not to happen?" said White, 29.[/Q]

1st they let them come here....my initial reaction....apparently they operated legally....

But, WHY should it be expected to happen? Would it happen in a Jewish or Catholic neighborhood?

It is the EXPECTATION that pisses me off.

 

[melon]

But, WHY should it be expected to happen? Would it happen in a Jewish or Catholic neighborhood?

When was the last time neo-Nazis ever marched in a Jewish or Catholic neighborhood?

Melon

 

[hiphop]

When I read some posters here, I get the impression that apparently its the fault of the Blacks. Catholics and Jews wouldn´t have attacked the NeoNazis.

What?

Yeah, right. That´s what they say.

Wow.

Right. They shouldn´t have moved a finger and just let it happen. And next time the Nazis takes over your country, you should also let it happen Because that´s what happens when the people who oppose this are all quiet about it, just like in Europe 1938/39. Yeah, like the Catholics in Austria!

Nice historical parallels there, definitely.

Don´t fool yourself with wishing they were "strong enough to ignore them" MVD_75. That´s a noble wish, but it doesn´t work. Here, we say: "To ignore is to secretly agree".

I am glad if brave Afro-Americans attacked the NeoNazis. Shows me that some people actually got some of their brains left.

The Afro-Americans must have felt like Bush must feel when someone attacks America. Hell, the Nazis just went in there! It was provocation, it was an attack. They just defended themselves, and then some people here complain about collateral damage. Not very noble.

 

[MissVelvetDress_75]

Yeah I know it is only a dream to think that people are strong enough to ignore these types of demonstrations with out resorting to violence. It is also a dream to think that hate is no longer an issue here in the US or in the rest of the world.

 

[hiphop]

Yeah I know it is only a dream to think that people are strong enough to ignore these types of demonstrations with out resorting to violence. It is also a dream to think that hate is no longer an issue here in the US or in the rest of the world.

Agreed.

And because it is a dream, and not reality, some are strong enough to defend their beliefs. Like you all know, and like we have discussed in several other threads, this shit doesn´t happen here. When a group of Nazis gathers without permission, they will be arrested. They provocate and they trigger violent reactions. Enough reason to keep them off the streets.

Hahaha, comparing the Afro-Americans to the Catholics really cracked me up. Austro-fascism which we had before of Hitler, was installed by super conservative Catholics. And bling, when the Führer came to Heldenplatz, every jolly Christian went there to hail him! ohmy we had a good time there mate I tell ya!

The people who were against the dictatorship, went to the résistance. They actually did something and risked their lives. Got their heads chooped off for that kind of opposition.

Tolerate this kind of extremism long anough, and you might be facing the same dangers. With a few UNA bombers on the way there.

 

[yolland]

hiphop, the attacks Dreadsox was condemning were against the police, not the neo-Nazis. Also, as regards Catholicism's relationship to all this, keep in mind that the Klu Klux Klan--our own homegrown hate group--were indeed fiercely anti-Catholic in their heyday, and that anti-Catholicism played a major role in the anti-Irish and anti-Polish bigotry so widespread in the US during the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

But back to Toledo...

To the extent that there are distinctly Jewish or Catholic neighborhoods in the area, their inhabitants are likely to enjoy far better relations with, and far more trust in, the police than inhabitants of a poor black neighborhood with a high crime rate. Jews and Catholics would also almost certainly be less likely to suspect some elements of the police of secretly sharing the Nazis' views of them. In a situation like this, with emotions running high, it thus would be much easier for anger at the neo-Nazis (symbols of WASP supremacism) to mutate into anger at the police who escorted them (perceived symbols of WASP authority).

I can understand Dreadsox's disapproval that a community leader would imply that the violence was inevitable. He could at least have prefaced his statement by acknowledging that attacking police was a seriously misguided way of expressing rage at neo-Nazis. (Then again, maybe he did and this story doesn't say it.) But in the end, I think melon has it right: in all likelihood, their whole goal was to start a riot.

Maybe in a perverse way it would be a good thing if they continued to use this strategy. If enough secondary conflict is generated by it, then the police might get fed up and ban or at least forcibly redirect their marches.

Neo-Nazis haven't tried marching on Jewish neighborhoods anytime recently, though Nazi-linked anti-Semitic activity (harrassment, propaganda and vandalism, mostly of synagogues, Jewish schools and cemeteries) has increased sharply during the last decade as these groups have become more organized, especially out East.

Catholics are not currently a favored target of many neo-fascist groups, though IMO it wouldn't be surprising if all the bad publicity the Catholic Church has had of late reawakened some "interest" of that sort.

 

[hiphop]

hiphop, the attacks Dreadsox was condemning were against the police, not the neo-Nazis.

Maybe in a perverse way it would be a good thing if they continued to use this strategy. If enough secondary conflict is generated by it, then the police might get fed up and ban or at least forcibly redirect their marches.

You got it right, Kieran!

Ack and the police being attacked doesn´t worry me. The same officers would probably beat the next Afro-American juvenile to death if they find a good reason (maybe he´s a dealer). Collateral damage like I said.

Bottom line is. The Afro Americans don´t want the Nazis to march through their street. Freedom of speech ideals aside, they will not sit there and play Uncle Tom, but do something about it. If that leads to aggresive action, well, redirect the Nazis next time.

Force them to walk through a white neighborhood, so the kiddies can ask "Daddy what does that sign on their arms mean?". Then you can explain them what the Nazis have done, how cruel they were. I´m sure your kids will be delighted to hear that from you and not to learn it in school first. Also explain that´s all free speech because the country you live in is so democratic. I´m sure the kids won´t be afraid at all...

 

[hiphop]

Nazi-linked anti-Semitic activity (harrassment, propaganda and vandalism, mostly of synagogues, Jewish schools and cemeteries) has increased sharply during the last decade as these groups have become more organized

When was the last time the Nazis got thrown into jail for this? Most of those crimes are not persecuted because the police is unable to find out who did it.

The very same criminals are defended with a shallow free speech argument.

But go on, continue to arrest your Sheehans, and continue to let the Nazis walk away freely. It´s not my business where America is heading, its just my 2c.

 

[A_Wanderer]

It's very difficult when the Nazis do all they can not to get arrested while the Sheehans make a point of trying to get arrested.

 

[Dreadsox]

When I read some posters here, I get the impression that apparently its the fault of the Blacks. Catholics and Jews wouldn´t have attacked the NeoNazis.

What?

Yeah, right. That´s what they say.

Wow.

Ya know what....I am the only poster who has raised this issue so if you do not understand my point...PM me instead of assuming the worst instead of "SOME POSTERS".

IF you think my point is wrong, then explain why I cannot find a SINGLE historical piece of evidence of any neo-Nazi group being attacked by Catholics and Jews.

They targeted the neighborhood for a reason...and the residents based on the initial article say, "what do you expect?"

Why should we EXPECT it?

 

[babyman]

[B


I do not agree with the Nazis, but I do believe that all of us should have freedom of speech and the right to protest.

[/B]

If I have nothing good at all to say like a naziskin, there must be someone who must shut up my mouth. Not everyone can say what he wants, you know, in the end it must depend of the goodness of your message. "Freedom of speech has a scent", but in certain cases, for certain people like nazis, their Freedom of speech has just and only a bad smell..............

 

[Dreadsox]

The very same criminals are defended with a shallow free speech argument.

But go on, continue to arrest your Sheehans, and continue to let the Nazis walk away freely. It´s not my business where America is heading, its just my 2c.

It is not a shallow argument. It is the same freedom of speech law that allowed Cindy Sheehan to conduct her protests.

Cindy chose to get arrested by not obeying the law.

I am thankful that we have such laws protecting our right to speak out.

The riots afterward, based on the things I have read were not directed at the Neo-Nazi's.

 

[hiphop]

IF you think my point is wrong, then explain why I cannot find a SINGLE historical piece of evidence of any neo-Nazi group being attacked by Catholics and Jews.

Because you didn´t take the time for a well-done research -if you researched at all. Don´t discuss with me if you´re too lazy for that

http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/cgi-bin/data.show.pl?di=record&da=texts&ke=3

 

[MsGiggles]

Yeah I know it is only a dream to think that people are strong enough to ignore these types of demonstrations with out resorting to violence. It is also a dream to think that hate is no longer an issue here in the US or in the rest of the world.

A dream definitely.....

 

[melon]

IF you think my point is wrong, then explain why I cannot find a SINGLE historical piece of evidence of any neo-Nazi group being attacked by Catholics and Jews.

Again, I can't recall the last time a neo-Nazi group marched through a Jewish or Catholic neighborhood. Having studied the nature of hate groups on the internet, I will say that, although they do officially hate Jews and Catholics, most of their energy is towards blatant racism targeted towards Hispanic and black populations, while just plain moping about Jews on the internet with all the old "Protocols of Zion" stereotypes.

However, correct me if I'm wrong, when the Orange marches in Northern Ireland purposely march through staunchly Catholic (and presumably with considerable IRA membership/support), they tend to erupt in violence, correct? That's probably the closest equivalent to that neo-Nazi march I can think of: a bunch of bigots choosing highly sensitive areas to target, and then sitting back and enjoying the violence that erupts as a result.

If the neo-Nazis had chosen to protest in the usual location of Downtown Toledo--which is also black, mind you--this would not have happened. But the neo-Nazis *purposely* chose the worst neighborhood they could that would take the *least* effort to incite a riot. And your reaction here to point fingers at the black population, unfortunately, is the reaction the neo-Nazis hoped for. After all, they were heard yelling "victory" as they were escorted out of the city before they even started marching.

Melon

 

[hiphop]

And your reaction here to point fingers at the black population, unfortunately, is the reaction the neo-Nazis hoped for. After all, they were heard yelling "victory" as they were escorted out of the city before they even started marching.

Melon

Exactly. If you´re interested, click the link I posted. It´s an interesting story, also about two groups of Jews, the established ones and the new ones. Survivors of the death camps did attack the American NeoNazis.

 

[Dreadsox]

Because you didn´t take the time for a well-done research -if you researched at all. Don´t discuss with me if you´re too lazy for that

http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/cgi-bin/data.show.pl?di=record&da=texts&ke=3

I do not understand why you are calling me lazy. I have done NOTHING to deserve a comment like that. It is a personal attack, and it is not necessary.

I will read your link when I get the time, however, I will most likely not respond since it is clear you are not even remotely interested in a dialogue with me.

 

[Dreadsox]

And your reaction here to point fingers at the black population, unfortunately, is the reaction the neo-Nazis hoped for. After all, they were heard yelling "victory" as they were escorted out of the city before they even started marching.

Melon

I am not certain if you are claiming I am part of the problem or what with this post.

My reaction is in response to the before hand expectations on the part of the black community member. Why is it to be EXPECTED that they would react this way?


It troubles me. THe mayor also spoke to the community the night before if my lazy research is up to par, because he expected it to degenerate into something violent.

If they struck out at the NEO Nazi, I would somehow feel that it was justified, however, the gangs went after their own community, and police and fireman.

I am trying to think it out....discuss it....and not make for a victory.

 

[nbcrusader]

Ack and the police being attacked doesn´t worry me. The same officers would probably beat the next Afro-American juvenile to death if they find a good reason (maybe he´s a dealer). Collateral damage like I said.

Is this the prevelent attitude where you live?

Violence against police doesn't worry you, but hate speech is worthy of violent response?

 

[Dreadsox]

I do not understand why you are calling me lazy. I have done NOTHING to deserve a comment like that. It is a personal attack, and it is not necessary.

I will read your link when I get the time, however, I will most likely not respond since it is clear you are not even remotely interested in a dialogue with me.

Well I have skimmed through it, I see no Jewish attacks, looting, burning down of restaraunts, no throwing bottles at police or fireman.

When I am feeling less lazy, I will reread YOUR article that allegedly shows Jews behaving in the same manner as the gangs did over the weekend.

 

[financeguy]

However, correct me if I'm wrong, when the Orange marches in Northern Ireland purposely march through staunchly Catholic (and presumably with considerable IRA membership/support), they tend to erupt in violence, correct? That's probably the closest equivalent to that neo-Nazi march I can think of: a bunch of bigots choosing highly sensitive areas to target, and then sitting back and enjoying the violence that erupts as a result.

I think the parallel is interesting, and I also thought of it when reading the thread. And another parallel - in my view, usually when there is trouble or violence at Orange Marches, both sides are somewhat to blame. I don't buy the idea of the poor oppressed Catholics being forced to put up with Orange bigots and having to respond to violence as the only possible solution, etc. Not that I am defending the Orange idiots either.

So actually I agree with Dreadsox and am surprised at the way his comments are being misread. Have we reached the stage where we can't criticize violence if blacks are partly responsible?