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Old 01-04-2005, 02:21 PM   #41
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um, ok
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Old 01-04-2005, 02:24 PM   #42
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Nope, that's not why, Dread.

I think the title is now appropriate because of the way the discussion has headed.


*edited for typo, while still not knowing if my grammar is correct.
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Old 01-04-2005, 02:33 PM   #43
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I can agree with a number of the points Wallis makes. Here's one problem though: Wallis is the editor for Sojourners, which is considered a liberal rag by many conservative Christians because it actually advocates having a balanced perspective as it pertains to one's faith. Right-wingers see only one way: to the right.

And Left-wingers see only way: to the left ?

Don't be so quick to pigeonhole. I've personally called right wing AND left wing, it's all a matter of perspective. I may hold right-leaning opinions on some matters, and left on others. Most people I know I know are not 100% right-wing or left-wing.

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Remember to throw James Dobson into that Buchanan/Falwell mix, and, from what I've seen and heard, Dobson is considered a strong-valued, rational, fatherly figure to most evangelical Christians --- hell, to conservative people in general. Keep in mind that Dobson has a syndicated program about "family values" that appears here in L.A. on one of the major AM news radio stations (I heard it in the middle of the news hour on KNX, if I remember correctly). This guy is considered level-headed.
I left him out as he's not as well known, and personally I, and many others, don't need a Dobson tellig me what is/is not appropriate for myself or my kids to watch/listen to, etc.


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You can accuse me of stereotyping. I know many Christians that fall under the umbrella of "conservative evangelicalism" and I have personal experience with that community.
As do I, my in-laws for example, but I assure you many do not either. I have incredibly heated debates with them, my father-in-law with his "Promise Keepers" (which I sometimes think is a major scam specifically designed to sell t-shirts) and his Dobson/Focus on the family stuff, but many of my fellow members of Saddleback and even within my old congregation of the Catholic and Episcopal Churches (Yes, it was a long and interesting journey before I found what I consider my spiritual home) I've attended are considerably more "tolerant" and liberal than you might think.
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Old 01-04-2005, 02:34 PM   #44
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Originally posted by pub crawler
I'm guessing cardosino was being sarcastic with the thread title

And we have a winner !!!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-04-2005, 02:49 PM   #45
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Originally posted by cardosino
[B]

And Left-wingers see only way: to the left ?
Sure, but the problem lies in extremism. The current right wing is extreme without even knowing it. A parallel would be if the left was currently holding power in the White House and was successfully instituting communism as a way of life in the U.S.

Generally, I don't have a problem with conservatives, but that all changed after 9-11 and Bush decided he would wage pre-emptive strikes on any country or people he deemed a "terrorist threat." Like I said, many conservatives in this country drank Bush's koolaid and are falling in line behind him like good soldiers.
Quote:
Don't be so quick to pigeonhole. I've personally called right wing AND left wing, it's all a matter of perspective. I may hold right-leaning opinions on some matters, and left on others. Most people I know I know are not 100% right-wing or left-wing.



...personally I, and many others, don't need a Dobson tellig me what is/is not appropriate for myself or my kids to watch/listen to, etc.
I'm not arguing with you. I wrote that you do not come across as the typical conservative evangelical. I don't think you're typical at all. I actually agree with a lot of what you've written.



Quote:
As do I, my in-laws for example, but I assure you many do not either. I have incredibly heated debates with them, my father-in-law with his "Promise Keepers" (which I sometimes think is a major scam specifically designed to sell t-shirts) and his Dobson/Focus on the family stuff, but many of my fellow members of Saddleback and even within my old congregation of the Catholic and Episcopal Churches (Yes, it was a long and interesting journey before I found what I consider my spiritual home) I've attended are considerably more "tolerant" and liberal than you might think.
No, I think I have an idea of how "tolerant" and "liberal" they are. I've pretty much taken the reverse path that you have and I suspect that I could easily have a civil and interesting/enlightening discussion with you.
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Old 01-04-2005, 03:30 PM   #46
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Originally posted by pub crawler

No, I think I have an idea of how "tolerant" and "liberal" they are. I've pretty much taken the reverse path that you have and I suspect that I could easily have a civil and interesting/enlightening discussion with you.
The Catholic one is tough. Anti-Death Penalty, Anti-War in Iraq, Pro-fight against poverty, Pro-help for AIDS in Africa, but anti-gay, but their lack of harsh action against the sexual predators within their own organization really turned me away.

The Episcopals were more "Catholic-lite", and have their own less publicized issues. with the same problem.

Either way, I think their position on the major items are definitely more liberal than they are conservative. Of course, depends on what you consider "major" !

If the most imprtant thing is gay marriage, they are definitely conservative. If it's the death penalty or the war in Iraq, they are definitely liberal.

That's why they (and others) shouldn't be so quickly pigeonholed as being either right or left leaning.

Same goes for Conservative Evangelicals, we shouldn't be so quick to assume that the media stereotype of the Evolution-denyin', home-schooled homophobic Robertson-watchin' Bush-lovin' warmongering racist is indicative of everyone who goes to a Conservative Evangelical church. Last I checked Bill Clinton was (or claims to be) a practising Southern Baptist, along with Jimmy Carter.
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Old 01-04-2005, 04:17 PM   #47
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Originally posted by neutral

I also find the thread title offensive, "sarcastic" or not.
I agree. Gay marriage has nothing to do with this, plus you are only giving one example. Really this title has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.
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Old 01-04-2005, 07:01 PM   #48
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Got ya'll you read it though, didn't it?
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Old 01-04-2005, 07:32 PM   #49
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Got ya'll you read it though, didn't it?
But so would "the Pope is gay"

I'm all for titles that make the person read the thread, but it should do something with the subject at hand.
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Old 01-04-2005, 07:44 PM   #50
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But so would "the Pope is gay"

I'm all for titles that make the person read the thread, but it should do something with the subject at hand.
When I read the inital post in the thread I had the impression that what the author (of the thread) was pointing out with the title is that here is a congregation who's big issue isn't gay marriage, but trying to eradicate poverty. So the is title provocative, but I didn't think entirely off topic either.
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Old 01-04-2005, 07:48 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra


When I read the inital post in the thread I had the impression that what the author (of the thread) was pointing out with the title is that here is a congregation who's big issue isn't gay marriage, but trying to eradicate poverty. So the is title provocative, but I didn't think entirely off topic either.
No, I understand what they were trying to do, it was just poorly executed. Very poorly.
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Old 01-05-2005, 02:27 AM   #52
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If the idea was to get you to read it (and as you said you understand what they were trying to do) then it was hardly poorly executed- it was well executed because it succeeded!
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Old 01-05-2005, 06:45 PM   #53
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The title gets under the skin.....like that has never been done before in FYM
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Old 01-06-2005, 07:46 AM   #54
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So we still haven't figured Left and Right is bullshit, if people can't see past labels we're all fucked no matter how much you hold to your ideals, right or wrong in mine ore others opinions they may be.................... thank you
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