"My god is true, your god is false"

[BVS]

This is why I specifically see what he says to the Ephesians and Corinthians as specific messages to individual churches.

Ok so that message is specific, but his message about homosexuality is to all homosexuals universally? Can you see where people have a hard time with these double standards?

 

[popsadie]

Pretty much everything else in the bible I have been able to find a logic to. I admit that I struggle with the logic against homosexuality. It isn't a brutal act and it isn't an inherently selfish act. It doesn't seem to violate the "love God and one another" that Jesus said summed up the ten commandments. The dietary laws in the OT make sense and the ten commandments all make sense. Still, I believe that if I am going to say that I believe in the bible, I have reconcile in someway even the beliefs that don't seem logical.

 

[popsadie]

BonoVox...you are a Christian. How do you reconcile it? I am genuinely curious.

 

[deep]

i took at look at your profile and even clicked on your webpage, and it seems like you're commited to a number of socially progressive causes, and i think that's great.

however, i wonder why people get stuck on the issue of homosexuality. you've said yourself that you're willing to be intentionally ignorant on the issue in order to justify a biblically held belief -- why do you consider this okay? if the bible said that you were to view black people as inferior, would you do so?

and i mean this to all the Christians out there -- liberal, conservative, or otherwise. what is the deal with homosexuality? why is it such a big deal? why, on the list of sins, does this one have a highly debatable place, not even in the top 10, does this become such a massive motivator?

why?









why do you hate me?

I hear you

and I do care, my brother


I tried to show you how I see their situation


I don't know what it is like to live in Oklahoma or any part of the South.

I think it would be difficult to go against the way one was brought up.

I think it may be unreasonable for any of us to expect you to become a "lightning rod"
for tolerance / acceptance within your religious community.




I was raised in an environment where similar views on homosexuality were held.

I am 51 now

It took my life experience, actually knowing gay people for extended periods of time
and also seeing people that oppose them (openly and vocally) for what they really are
for me to understand there was only one side that any decent person could support.


Each (straight) person has to get to place by themselves.


I am satisfied that you are "conflicted".

those that are bigoted
and not conflicted

 

[BVS]

BonoVox...you are a Christian. How do you reconcile it? I am genuinely curious.

What is there to reconcile?

 

[BVS]

This site gives an example of how that's not true. You have to remember that each of his letter was written to a different church or audience. Some were out of control, so certain rules had to be put in place, others weren't.

http://www.xenos.org/teachings/nt/romans/gary/rom16-1.htm

Really doesn't prove much, it just gives some excuses and how he is considered better than others.

What I do find interesting about that website is that they do admit this is PAUL's background. I've always been of mind that the Bible is written by man inspired by God, but there is a lot of personal bias that gets leaked into the writings especially given the means to which how these letters have been passed down and translated over the centuries.

 

[deep]

hello coemgen

and popsadie



I have a question


when you go to your church service on Sunday

of the (say) 300 people attending

How many of them do you think will have not committed a "sin" in the preceding week?

 

[BVS]

The dietary laws in the OT make sense

Maybe they "made" sense, but I find it hard to believe they still make sense.

Do you still follow OT Levitical law?

 

[anitram]

What's your alternative to scientific proof and peaceful dialogue about what the Bible says?

You say this and the popsadie says:

I hold to the scriptural views of it stated in the new testament over scientific findings.

So don't you see that discussion is OVER? You can provide some people with scientific evidence until you're blue in the face and it will do you no good at all.

 

[popsadie]

probably none of them.....including myself. They might have committed sins that I strongly thought were wrong, and that would be between them and god...same with how I perceive homosexuality.

 

[BVS]

You say this and the popsadie says:



So don't you see that discussion is OVER? You can provide some people with scientific evidence until you're blue in the face and it will do you no good at all.

Oh, I was just about to point out the same thing...

 

[popsadie]

make sense as in the time they were followed...they protected the Israelites from food poisoning and such..... Now, I feel we have other things to protect us from that.

 

[BVS]

They might have committed sins that I strongly thought were wrong, and that would be between them and god...

Why would it matter if you thought strongly they were wrong, isn't all sin equal and a matter left up to God?

 

[popsadie]

Discussion isn't only about proving someone wrong or right...it is also about understanding the reasons why people believe how they do.

 

[deep]

the ten commandments all make sense.

Would we be better off if we all followed then?

If it was encouraged and perhaps even mandated?

I have even heard some say if we all would simply live by them we would really not need any other laws.

 

[popsadie]

Well..not exactly. The church(as a body) can and has confronted members about their sins. Their is biblical precedent for it, but it mostly only done in the case of church leaders. Still, what I meant to say is that I'm sure that church members have done things that I would interpret as a sin, but unless I am very good friends with them or if I think they are a leader that is leading Christians astray, I would leave it up to them and God.

 

[BVS]

make sense as in the time they were followed...they protected the Israelites from food poisoning and such..... Now, I feel we have other things to protect us from that.

Exactly, probably why most were made into law, and not exactly handed down from God.

People started get sick when they ate certain foods, and they thought this was a sign from God. Sleeping in the same bed while your wife was mensturating seemed icky and unclean, let's make it a law because we really don't understand what going on.

 

[deep]

You say this and the popsadie says:



So don't you see that discussion is OVER? You can provide some people with scientific evidence until you're blue in the face and it will do you no good at all.

two different people can't have different opinions

 

[anitram]

Discussion isn't only about proving someone wrong or right...it is also about understanding the reasons why people believe how they do.

You know when it comes to issues of fundamental human rights and respect for fellow man and decency, then I draw a line. We as a society (generally anyway) do not tolerate backwards views regarding race, women, slavery and inservitude and a number of other human rights issues. Anti-homosexuality is the only accepted bigotry which we are supposed to "discuss" and get to the bottom of and extend some special sort of understanding to. Nobody would seriously come on this forum and tell me that I need to understand why somebody thinks a woman is worth nothing or that I need to understand why they feel a black man should go to his own schools. Nobody would say that and yet when it comes to views on homosexuality we are supposed to be super-accomodating. No, sorry.

 

[popsadie]

I think we would all be better off if we followed the ten commandments, especially if we truly understood the spirit and motive behind them.

 

[BVS]

Discussion isn't only about proving someone wrong or right...it is also about understanding the reasons why people believe how they do.

True, but if I believed black people were inferior just because my parents and church told me, I wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on...

 

[BVS]

The church(as a body) can and has confronted members about their sins. Their is biblical precedent for it, but it mostly only done in the case of church leaders.

How so? and what denomination are you(curiosity)?

 

[deep]

probably none of them.....including myself. They might have committed sins that I strongly thought were wrong, and that would be between them and god...same with how I perceive homosexuality.

thanks for the answer

and I think coemgen would agree with you

he has said "we are all sinners"

(I am not, you guys can speak for yourself, but we can leave this for another time)


well, back to your concept of sin

I also imagine that in attendance with you both may be young people that live together, people do that these days, even in the South.


and I am sure that you would agree
in your service would be single people that have had intimate relations, that have sinned and may even be doing it on a regular basis.

Each and every situation I described would be individuals that sin
but if they accept Christ, though his grace, they are saved.

Are any of these people singled out?
and in reality,
- you, as a sinner are really no better than a practicing homosexual.

For 'we all sin' and we all have the opportunity to be saved
by simply accepting Christ. Though we sin, again, and again and again until we die.

 

[popsadie]

I am a United Methodist with a Southern Baptist background.
The biblical precedent- Jude verse 23- save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh"
1 Cor 5: 11, 12,- What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people. It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge whose inside the church who are sinning in those ways."

 

[financeguy]

Nobody would seriously come on this forum and tell me that I need to understand why somebody thinks a woman is worth nothing or that I need to understand why they feel a black man should go to his own schools.

Well, in respect of the second part, they might - if, for example, they were a follower of the Nation of Islam. African nationalism/separatism is a valid movement with a long history.

 

[deep]

I am a United Methodist with
a Southern Baptist background.


What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin,
or is greedy,
or worships idols,
or is abusive,
or a drunkard,
or a swindler.
Don't even eat with such people.
It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders,
but it certainly is your job to judge whose inside the church who are sinning in those ways."

Again, I don't know what it is like to be you or be raised in the South.

That is a very narrow view of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

Some of this judging and shunning may add to you feeling conflicted

Can you imagine Christ rejecting these people?

 

[BVS]

What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people. It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge whose inside the church who are sinning in those ways."

Christ would have never had friends and eaten alone everynight if he believed this.

Should I follow this narrow interpretaion of this verse or be more Christlike?

 

[popsadie]

This isn't my interpretation. You asked for the biblical precedent and I provided it.

 

[popsadie]

Christianity is a balance between exclusion and inclusion. Christ did eat with sinners...but after meeting them he said "sin no more". These warnings are made only to those "inside" not to the ones "outside" of the church.

 

[BVS]

This isn't my interpretation. You asked for the biblical precedent and I provided it.

Well then there's some major contradictions aren't there?