"My god is true, your god is false"

[butter7]

Popsadie, you still didn't answer my question.

How did you know he/she is the God of Christianity?

You can't convince me by tell me that "I know it is, I know it by heart".

To prove something is true, evidence is essential. And to define the word evidence, it must be a piece of subject. Things like: "I'm Brad Pitt's girlfriend, because I had sex with him last night in my dream", would not be acceptable. So doesn;t any literature written by mankind, which include the bible.

 

[popsadie]

Ok...I prayed to the Christian God for a healing and received one. I prayed to the Christian God to reveal him/herself to me and the next week six Christians asked me about my faith unprompted. I have prayed for guidance and received it through Christian friends, unprompted, the next day. I could also go into reading the OT and seeing the gospels fulfill the OT. This is how. The matter remains that a relationship with God is one of faith, not scientific proof. Like Bono says...what you don't know you can feel it somehow...faith is instinct and I believe God does speak to us through what might be termed as intuition.

 

[butter7]

Ok...I prayed to the Christian God for a healing and received one. I prayed to the Christian God to reveal him/herself to me and the next week six Christians asked me about my faith unprompted. I have prayed for guidance and received it through Christian friends, unprompted, the next day. I could also go into reading the OT and seeing the gospels fulfill the OT. This is how. The matter remains that a relationship with God is one of faith, not scientific proof. Like Bono says...what you don't know you can feel it somehow...faith is instinct and I believe God does speak to us through what might be termed as intuition.

Well, I'm glad you could get the help you needed.

But just like I said, you still couldn't prove it is the Christian God who answered it, or even prevent these events been explained as coincidence, pure luck, or the sympathy from the Gods from other religions.

I might have to note you that not all religions require you strictly to worship the God(s) to receive the help.

And for the Bono quote, he said he could feel it, but he did not say that he's feeling is correct. Plus, Bono is not God, he knows no better than you do.

 

[popsadie]

The Christian God was the only one I knew to address. He was the only one who promised forgiveness for sin. He was the only one who said that if you followed him, you would have the power to do things that seemed impossible..including forgiving my father. These are not qualities of Buddhist or Islamic gods.

 

[butter7]

The Christian God was the only one I knew to address. He was the only one who promised forgiveness for sin. He was the only one who said that if you followed him, you would have the power to do things that seemed impossible..including forgiving my father. These are not qualities of Buddhist or Islamic gods.

Okay, according to the first sentence, your're saying that this God is the only God you know, because you've never heard or researched or try to understand the other Gods? Because if you did, you wouldn't say the rest of the post.

Well, we believed the sun is revolving around the earth once. But we were terribly wrong, because of our ignorance.

 

[popsadie]

I am afraid that I will not be able to give the answer you want to hear. Again, I could talk about my discoveries regarding Old Testament prophecies that were fulfilled, or what happened after I prayed to the Christian God, but they wouldn't prove anything to you. Again, over and over, Christians are told that the Kingdom of Heaven is one of faith, not scientific proof. I believe in Christianity because it was the only one I knew of when I sought God...or probably more accurately....he sought me. Out of the faiths that I do know of...the Judeo Christian god makes the most sense to me....and I truly believe that he has "spoke" to me through scriptures, other Christians, and my own intuition.

 

[popsadie]

This was 10 years ago. Since then, I have learned more about other religions. That is why I used the past tense of know...knew.

 

[butter7]

This was 10 years ago. Since then, I have learned more about other religions. That is why I used the past tense of know...knew.

I don't want you to get me wrong. I hope everyone would have a great life, which is this life, not the promised one. And I couldn't say it's a bad thing that you could have a deep faith in something, even I don't actually believe in what you believe.

The tricky thing is I always have an open mind for religions, even I don't actually believe in any of them, I always ask the believers to tell me about what they believe, just for understanding and cultural issue. However, the Christian teaching is the one who makes the least sense to me.

BTW

Two questions to test how much you knew about other religions:

1. If one person believe in Taosim, what the highest level of attainment?

2. If one person believe in Mahayana buddhism, what the highest level of attainment? How it different from Theravada buddhism?

 

[coemgen]

that's a total cop out.

you cannot refer to the bible as the literal word of Jesus. it's intellectually bogus to do so.

what does your intellect tell you?

No, I think that's a total cop out. It's completely black and white. You can't interpret it differently. Plus, it goes along with the idea that he wouldn't die and rise again so we can chose another way. he created the way through Christ. To allow another way makes the sacrifice invalid.

That's what my intellect tells me.

 

[coemgen]

How can you dare to assume to know about what Christ meant, said, felt, or intended?

because it's as plain as day. read it for yourself. not all of the Bible has to be taken for a deeper meaning. a lot of it is very easy to undestand and is written in black and white language.

 

[coemgen]

talking about people you don't know

people you don't associate with

people you can not possibly have any understanding about

just making up things and telling stories that are not grounded in any reality

is bearing false witness against your neighbor

Are you implying I'm bearing false witness?

How can you say that?

 

[popsadie]

actually coemgan...i think he was implying that I was.

 

[coemgen]

what is "intellecually unsound" is taking Jesus, word-for-word, as if he were caught on camera by a documentary film crew, and by trusting the ENGLISH translation of the bible more than you trust your own faculties.

you've also missed the point of a single moment of awareness. that seems to have already passed for you. now, it's be the best student in class. only an "A" gets you salvation.

Why don't you tell us what he really said when he said "I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody gets to the father but by me."?

And what's this best student in the class crap? only an "A" gets you salvation? that's silly.

 

[coemgen]

actually coemgan...i think he was implying that I was.

yeah, but he asked me how seriously I take that commandment.

 

[popsadie]

well I guess we have both been accused...

 

[coemgen]

Okay...

that's the logic:

One points a gun at your head, and say: if you don't follow me, I'll shoot you.

You call that LOVE? Come on....

That's not the logic though. You first have to have a better understanding of hell. It's not some place with flames and lava and crap, it's the absence of God. If we're not going to choose to spend eternity with God, he's not going to force us. It's all about choice.

 

[popsadie]

butter- I have failed your test. To be honest...I have only really read the Bagahavida and a little of the Koran. I don't know the specifics of every religion out there. I do believe that Buddhists believe that there is a path one can take to total elimination of desire and passion and I do believe that Hindus believe that one is reincarnated...I do believe that some Hindus believe this reincarnation will lead them to fellowship with Krishna.

 

[butter7]

That's not the logic though. You first have to have a better understanding of hell. It's not some place with flames and lava and crap, it's the absence of God. If we're not going to choose to spend eternity with God, he's not going to force us. It's all about choice.

how did you know that? Been there before?

 

[BVS]

This is why I don't prescribe to any Christian denomination... I'm quite embarassed to see the arrogance in certain people's responses. This is not the humility that Christ personified...

 

[butter7]

butter- I have failed your test. To be honest...I have only really read the Bagahavida and a little of the Koran. I don't know the specifics of every religion out there. I do believe that Buddhists believe that there is a path one can take to total elimination of desire and passion and I do believe that Hindus believe that one is reincarnated...I do believe that some Hindus believe this reincarnation will lead them to fellowship with Krishna.

Nothing to feel bad about it, popsadie, I could have failed any test related to Jewish religion too. Because I've never had a chance to research on it.

The two questions I asked is the most basic thing about the two religion, I suppose you could see it also? They might be the first sets of questions people would ask: What will the religion do to me, if I belived in?

The reason I choose Taoism and Buddhism is because the first one is spread regionally, and the second one has a pretty big believer base, one of the three main religions in the world, the other two are Christianity and Islam. And the linkage between Taoism and Buddism, quite significantly, is they share Gods. Taoism gods are respected by Mahayana Buddhism, and all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are worshipped by Taoism believer, as well.

The funny thing I found is that how people were influenced by one religion and then push the same logic to all other religions, then reject them for not fitting the logic. The Christian logic will not fit in the two religions I listed, as the answers are:

1. If one person believe in Taoism, what the highest level of attainment?

God(s).

2. If one person believe in Mahayana buddhism, what the highest level of attainment? How it different from Theravada buddhism?

the highest level of attainment for Mahayana followers is Buddha. The basic difference between Theravada buddhism and Mahayana buddhism is that in Theravada buddhism, believers is to save oneself, and the highest level of attainment for them is Arhat. They could never be a Buddha; and the duty for Mahayana Buddha is to guid people in the world from fall to hell, and save the souls that already in hell, back to life.

And as for literature reading, it might be an important part of Christian beliefe, but if you look at Zen, you will find that this denomination does not believe in literature document, as they believe that literature documentations have time restriction, what is correct today, might not be correct tomorrow. And for a note also, this kind of attitude was initially from Taoism.

And back to the point, if you took Buddhism, their god -- Buddha, not only forgive people's sin, but also save human souls which already in hell. It's basically incorrect to say that Christian God is the most forgiveable one, or the one have the most of the love.

Just as Buddhist couldn't prove the Christian God is false, Christian believers have no better chance to prove the Buddhism believe is wrong. Moreover, since these Gods, Buddhas been coexist for thousand of years, why couldn't we human do? Why should we segregate people by their sexual preference, religion...all that kind of crap?

 

[popsadie]

Don't buddhists believe in rebirth? Since when is there a dualistic destination in Buddhism?

 

[butter7]

Don't buddhists believe in rebirth? Since when is there a dualistic destination in Buddhism?

For ordinary people, you and me: basically yes, if we didn't fall into hell. If we did, when we were saved, we still back to the circle.

For the one who achieved certain level: Yes. They might fall to hell too.

For the one who achieved Bodhisattvas level: They post-poned.

For Buddha: No

That's basically what they teach people. And if you ask me, well, I don't know. Can't remeber what I did in the previous life at all.

 

[popsadie]

Looked up Buddhism and noticed alot of differences between beliefs. Namely, Buddhists don't believe in a supreme being or savior. They also believe that salvation occurs because of what you do...not what is done for you.
There are too many differences in belief for me to subscribe to the same god...many paths theory. I'm not going to wage war on Buddhists. I will ask them what they believe and why and tell them the same, but I don't plan on forcing them to change religions. I suppose this is our fundamental disagreement...Different religions view God and spirituality in very different ways. One, if they are follow a path, must choose one...not a combination of several. I have chosen Christianity. It follows my understanding of the world better than karmic faiths and it's holy texts and my faith experiences within it are true to me.

 

[butter7]

Looked up Buddhism and noticed alot of differences between beliefs. Namely, Buddhists don't believe in a supreme being or savior. They also believe that salvation occurs because of what you do...not what is done for you.
There are too many differences in belief for me to subscribe to the same god...many paths theory. I'm not going to wage war on Buddhists. I will ask them what they believe and why and tell them the same, but I don't plan on forcing them to change religions. I suppose this is our fundamental disagreement...Different religions view God and spirituality in very different ways. One, if they are follow a path, must choose one...not a combination of several. I have chosen Christianity. It follows my understanding of the world better than karmic faiths and it's holy texts and my faith experiences within it are true to me.

I've never doubted your faith on God, popsadie, and I don't think you'd have any problem to get along with Buddhists, even to make a few very good friends.

All I'm saying is what true to you might not be true to the others. People in other religion might have the same feeling as you stated here. It's unfair to say that one god is better than the other, especially when we have little understanding what the others really are. Just like you said, you could feel something, but you don't know what it is. It might be better or even safer to not be so sure about certain things.

 

[popsadie]

I believe that you are probably right. I have known followers of other faiths and they have told me that that way was the way for them. Still, the path I have chosen is Christianity. I believe that no one other than the creator knows why so many religions exist, but I do believe, in my current understanding, that a man Jesus did live 2000 years ago and was god/man and did die on a cross. This belief has brought me to the study of Judeo-Christian scriptures and other church writings. Out of curiosity....are you currently exploring Kahamayta Buddhism?

Butter...I'll check back in the morning..I'm getting too sleepy to type coherently;p Thank you for the respectful dialogue I have enjoyed it.

 

[butter7]

I believe that you are probably right. I have known followers of other faiths and they have told me that that way was the way for them. Still, the path I have chosen is Christianity. I believe that no one other than the creator knows why so many religions exist, but I do believe, in my current understanding, that a man Jesus did live 2000 years ago and was god/man and did die on a cross. This belief has brought me to the study of Judeo-Christian scriptures and other church writings. Out of curiosity....are you currently exploring Kahamayta Buddhism?

I did some research a few monthes back, when I was reading U2 by U2. Honestly, I feel very sorry for Bono for some reason. As I said in the previous post, I have a cultural background which people believes all Gods are true, and all living forms are equal to Gods. I found it's extremely sad and pathetic for people to be afraid of God's power or decision or hell...that kind of things are crap to me.

I wish people could be strong, and free to live the way they want. If one god doesn't serve right, free to choose another. Gods are servants of all living forms, just like the rich has the responsibility to the poor, that's basically what I believed. So I throw the duty of saving Bono to Buddha. And actually, according to the buddhist standard, Bono is a qualified Bodhisattva, so he even free of falling into samsara. Oh well, hopefully, the Christian God and Buddha won't got into a big fight for that.

Sweet dream popsadie. I've learned a lot from you too.

 

[smitty83]

I'm afraid I'm very strongly atheist.
I think LaVey had better ideas than anything I've read in the bible.

 

[martha]

because it's as plain as day. read it for yourself. not all of the Bible has to be taken for a deeper meaning. a lot of it is very easy to undestand and is written in black and white language.

And this is why you folks tend to get into trouble. You think that you know God's Mind and intent. You think that texts written hundreds of years after the events are to be trusted, and that a particular human's interpretation of them can be the final word. I understand what faith is; I understand what unswerving belief is. But I cannot fathom the self-righteousness and arrogance of American Christians. It boggles me.

 

[Irvine511]

Why don't you tell us what he really said when he said "I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody gets to the father but by me."?

And what's this best student in the class crap? only an "A" gets you salvation? that's silly.

Coemgen: you know as well as i do that everything Christ "said" is secondhand information, written decades and decades after it was said. if not longer.

as for best student in class -- what i'm saying is that for the fundamentalist, there is only one moment where one has clarity and consciousness, and that is at the point where one chooses to believe. and then, after that, the mind, heart, and soul are put in the service of learning the letter of the thing, ignoring the spirit, and viewing all that happens in life thorugh this prism.

you believe in a loving God who controls all things on earth? and then, one day, a tsunami comes along and kills 250,000+ people, many of them children. what do you do? do you re-evaluate? do you struggle? do you despair?

no! for it is all God's will! you can't possibly understand why, so rejoice! praise him! for he knows better than you why!

there is a dearly departed poster who, in my view, was clearly the best student in class when it came to things like this. his intellect was tremendous, and his knowledge of scripture impressive.

but i never got a sense of consciousness or genuine self-awareness or struggle or even the glimmer of a moment where what he saw conflicted in some way with what he read in the Bible.

got a question about the Bible? look to the Bible for the answer.

 

[Irvine511]

That's not the logic though. You first have to have a better understanding of hell. It's not some place with flames and lava and crap, it's the absence of God. If we're not going to choose to spend eternity with God, he's not going to force us. It's all about choice.

so atheists are living in hell?