My brilliant solution for Iraq - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-04-2006, 03:31 PM   #1
War Child
 
Butterscotch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 716
Local Time: 02:58 AM
My brilliant solution for Iraq

I don't know why no one has thought of it. There is NO way this country can exist as one entity when it is comprised of factions who all hate each other. Just as with Yugoslavia, Iraq is nothing more than a creation of those post WWI political heads who thought they were doing the right thing in divvying up the world after the collapse of the German, Austro-Hungarian and Ottman empires. They often, for convenience's sake, drew lines around places that should never have been lumped into one country in the first place. There has been lots of trouble ever since.

The only real solution to stopping the factional violence is to separate the country of Iraq into regions- one for the Kurds, one for the Shiites, one for each type of Sunnis. Then no one would feel they had to fight the other for control of the government! Separate automous regions, or even countries, would settle these unsolvable differences. For a few years, UN sanctioned peacekeepers could guard the borders and see how it goes.

What do you think?
__________________

Butterscotch is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 03:34 PM   #2
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Canadiens1131's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,363
Local Time: 10:58 PM
You sir are correct.

In addition I'd suggest getting regional Middle Eastern nations involved in the security of a split up Iraq. The average Iraqi will never trust Americans, and the longer coalition forces stay there, the worse things will get.
__________________

Canadiens1131 is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 03:41 PM   #3
War Child
 
Butterscotch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 716
Local Time: 02:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Canadiens1160
You sir are correct.

In addition I'd suggest getting regional Middle Eastern nations involved in the security of a split up Iraq. The average Iraqi will never trust Americans, and the longer coalition forces stay there, the worse things will get.
You are exactly right. And yes, getting the other neighbor nations involved will be a big help. WHY can't those in charge see this?
Butterscotch is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 03:47 PM   #4
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 01:58 PM
You're suggesting physically uprooting and shuffling everyone around? Assigning everyone new houses, neighbourhoods, schools, places of employment? Am I missing something?
__________________
<a href=https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 03:59 PM   #5
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Canadiens1131's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,363
Local Time: 10:58 PM
I believe the various religious groups in Iraq are already pretty much geographically separated.
Canadiens1131 is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 04:07 PM   #6
War Child
 
Iskra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 753
Local Time: 03:58 AM
My solution for World Peace, Iraq etc:
Put GIANT speakers on the moon.
Blast Sinatra, U2, Bob Marley, the Beatles and James Brown 24-7 round the world.
It's hard to be angry or want to fight under those conditions.
Iskra is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 04:09 PM   #7
Blue Crack Addict
 
Varitek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: on borderland we run
Posts: 16,861
Local Time: 09:58 PM
Not entirely separated. The other problem with this solution (not that it is a bad one besides this) is resources. Lands inhabited primarily by various groups have vast disparities in oil, water etc resources. How do you fix that? Nobody (except the big time winners sitting on the oil wells) will agree to splitting up the country if they can't get a piece of the wealth.
Varitek is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 04:26 PM   #8
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,643
Local Time: 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Iskra
My solution for World Peace, Iraq etc:
Put GIANT speakers on the moon.
Blast Sinatra, U2, Bob Marley, the Beatles and James Brown 24-7 round the world.
It's hard to be angry or want to fight under those conditions.

You have to put some air into the space, because no sound will come through the vacuum

The biggest problem I think is that Christians try to tell Muslims how to live. In the Muslim world it is seen that problems get solved by Muslims, and any intervention from the west is seen as an act against the Muslim sovereignty.
So it's not just creating some states and peace will be.

Think of the situation between Pakistan and India for example.
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 04:30 PM   #9
Blue Crack Addict
 
U2democrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: England by way of 'Murica.
Posts: 22,142
Local Time: 02:58 AM
Re: My brilliant solution for Iraq

Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch
I don't know why no one has thought of it. There is NO way this country can exist as one entity when it is comprised of factions who all hate each other. Just as with Yugoslavia, Iraq is nothing more than a creation of those post WWI political heads who thought they were doing the right thing in divvying up the world after the collapse of the German, Austro-Hungarian and Ottman empires. They often, for convenience's sake, drew lines around places that should never have been lumped into one country in the first place. There has been lots of trouble ever since.

The only real solution to stopping the factional violence is to separate the country of Iraq into regions- one for the Kurds, one for the Shiites, one for each type of Sunnis. Then no one would feel they had to fight the other for control of the government! Separate automous regions, or even countries, would settle these unsolvable differences. For a few years, UN sanctioned peacekeepers could guard the borders and see how it goes.

What do you think?
We debate this almost every day in our government class...and while it sounds like a good idea, it's not that simple. They'll fight over location, resources, influence in the region, etc.

At this point I don't see any good solution for over there so its better than none
U2democrat is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 05:15 PM   #10
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Canadiens1131's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,363
Local Time: 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega



You have to put some air into the space, because no sound will come through the vacuum
How come the ships in Star Wars make noise then?

Canadiens1131 is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 05:31 PM   #11
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,643
Local Time: 04:58 AM
George Lucas was so great, he even intrdouced special effects to the space
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 06:10 PM   #12
War Child
 
menelaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hellas, and God knows where else you 've got your tape recorders turned on...
Posts: 652
Local Time: 04:58 AM
Re: My brilliant solution for Iraq

Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch
The only real solution to stopping the factional violence is to separate the country of Iraq into regions- one for the Kurds, one for the Shiites, one for each type of Sunnis. Then no one would feel they had to fight the other for control of the government! Separate automous regions, or even countries, would settle these unsolvable differences. For a few years, UN sanctioned peacekeepers could guard the borders and see how it goes.

What do you think?
If someone official (Bush or Condie) just mentions a solution like that, even the next day of the announcement we will hear in the news that in Turkey a junta (military movement) has taken control of the country and they are preparing for an invasion in the kurd section of Iraq...
Turks have enormous problems for decades with the guerillas of the Kurds liberation organisations...Some 20 million people in Turkey consider themselfs as Kurds and want to create Kurdistan -their own country-...
US officials know that this solution is out of the question for now but the situation is pretty angry down there so, who knows.?
The 2003 invasion of Iraq I thing should be considered equal to Napoleon's Waterloo battle...
menelaos is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 06:17 PM   #13
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,643
Local Time: 04:58 AM
That's right, Turkey wouldn't accept any Kurdish state, especially since there will be a direct border.
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 06:41 PM   #14
War Child
 
menelaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hellas, and God knows where else you 've got your tape recorders turned on...
Posts: 652
Local Time: 04:58 AM
PKK, aka the Kurds Liberation Party wich is listed as a terrorist group in Turkey (in US too I think) rendered much of southeastern Turkey a war zone in the late 1980s and 1990s...Their power is reduced during the last years but imagine what will happen if one (Iraq) of the 3 (Turkey and Syria) parts of the -so called Kurdistan will gain it's freedom...
The army in Turkey is considered as the guardians of Atatürk's Republic..If the army "feels" any danger, they won't hesitate to intervent...They 've done it in the past, they won't hesitate to do it now...

I live in the region, Greece may be far from Iraq but Turkey isn't, so one way or another the problems there affect my country too...
menelaos is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 07:11 PM   #15
Refugee
 
AliEnvy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,320
Local Time: 02:58 AM
This is from the Armed Forces Journal.




AliEnvy is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 07:19 PM   #16
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 02:58 AM
One problem with your solution is the neighbors. Turkey wants an independent Kurdistan about like Tayyip Erdogan (Turkish PM) wants a hole in his head. Turkey is the only democracy in the Middle East, and they carry considerable weight. We screwed up big time when we thought we could use Turkey as a northern front in the war. Guess what? The Turkish parliament voted against allowing this.
verte76 is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 07:23 PM   #17
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 02:58 AM
Re: Re: My brilliant solution for Iraq

Quote:
Originally posted by menelaos
The 2003 invasion of Iraq I thing should be considered equal to Napoleon's Waterloo battle...
I agree.
verte76 is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 07:26 PM   #18
Refugee
 
AliEnvy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,320
Local Time: 02:58 AM
Here is the article that accompanied the maps.

http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2006/06/1833899

Blood borders
How a better Middle East would look
By Ralph Peters

International borders are never completely just. But the degree of injustice they inflict upon those whom frontiers force together or separate makes an enormous difference — often the difference between freedom and oppression, tolerance and atrocity, the rule of law and terrorism, or even peace and war.

The most arbitrary and distorted borders in the world are in Africa and the Middle East. Drawn by self-interested Europeans (who have had sufficient trouble defining their own frontiers), Africa's borders continue to provoke the deaths of millions of local inhabitants. But the unjust borders in the Middle East — to borrow from Churchill — generate more trouble than can be consumed locally.

While the Middle East has far more problems than dysfunctional borders alone — from cultural stagnation through scandalous inequality to deadly religious extremism — the greatest taboo in striving to understand the region's comprehensive failure isn't Islam but the awful-but-sacrosanct international boundaries worshipped by our own diplomats.

Of course, no adjustment of borders, however draconian, could make every minority in the Middle East happy. In some instances, ethnic and religious groups live intermingled and have intermarried. Elsewhere, reunions based on blood or belief might not prove quite as joyous as their current proponents expect. The boundaries projected in the maps accompanying this article redress the wrongs suffered by the most significant "cheated" population groups, such as the Kurds, Baluch and Arab Shia, but still fail to account adequately for Middle Eastern Christians, Bahais, Ismailis, Naqshbandis and many another numerically lesser minorities. And one haunting wrong can never be redressed with a reward of territory: the genocide perpetrated against the Armenians by the dying Ottoman Empire.

Yet, for all the injustices the borders re-imagined here leave unaddressed, without such major boundary revisions, we shall never see a more peaceful Middle East.

Even those who abhor the topic of altering borders would be well-served to engage in an exercise that attempts to conceive a fairer, if still imperfect, amendment of national boundaries between the Bosporus and the Indus. Accepting that international statecraft has never developed effective tools — short of war — for readjusting faulty borders, a mental effort to grasp the Middle East's "organic" frontiers nonetheless helps us understand the extent of the difficulties we face and will continue to face. We are dealing with colossal, man-made deformities that will not stop generating hatred and violence until they are corrected.

As for those who refuse to "think the unthinkable," declaring that boundaries must not change and that's that, it pays to remember that boundaries have never stopped changing through the centuries. Borders have never been static, and many frontiers, from Congo through Kosovo to the Caucasus, are changing even now (as ambassadors and special representatives avert their eyes to study the shine on their wingtips).

Oh, and one other dirty little secret from 5,000 years of history: Ethnic cleansing works.

Begin with the border issue most sensitive to American readers: For Israel to have any hope of living in reasonable peace with its neighbors, it will have to return to its pre-1967 borders — with essential local adjustments for legitimate security concerns. But the issue of the territories surrounding Jerusalem, a city stained with thousands of years of blood, may prove intractable beyond our lifetimes. Where all parties have turned their god into a real-estate tycoon, literal turf battles have a tenacity unrivaled by mere greed for oil wealth or ethnic squabbles. So let us set aside this single overstudied issue and turn to those that are studiously ignored.

The most glaring injustice in the notoriously unjust lands between the Balkan Mountains and the Himalayas is the absence of an independent Kurdish state. There are between 27 million and 36 million Kurds living in contiguous regions in the Middle East (the figures are imprecise because no state has ever allowed an honest census). Greater than the population of present-day Iraq, even the lower figure makes the Kurds the world's largest ethnic group without a state of its own. Worse, Kurds have been oppressed by every government controlling the hills and mountains where they've lived since Xenophon's day.

The U.S. and its coalition partners missed a glorious chance to begin to correct this injustice after Baghdad's fall. A Frankenstein's monster of a state sewn together from ill-fitting parts, Iraq should have been divided into three smaller states immediately. We failed from cowardice and lack of vision, bullying Iraq's Kurds into supporting the new Iraqi government — which they do wistfully as a quid pro quo for our good will. But were a free plebiscite to be held, make no mistake: Nearly 100 percent of Iraq's Kurds would vote for independence.

As would the long-suffering Kurds of Turkey, who have endured decades of violent military oppression and a decades-long demotion to "mountain Turks" in an effort to eradicate their identity. While the Kurdish plight at Ankara's hands has eased somewhat over the past decade, the repression recently intensified again and the eastern fifth of Turkey should be viewed as occupied territory. As for the Kurds of Syria and Iran, they, too, would rush to join an independent Kurdistan if they could. The refusal by the world's legitimate democracies to champion Kurdish independence is a human-rights sin of omission far worse than the clumsy, minor sins of commission that routinely excite our media. And by the way: A Free Kurdistan, stretching from Diyarbakir through Tabriz, would be the most pro-Western state between Bulgaria and Japan.

A just alignment in the region would leave Iraq's three Sunni-majority provinces as a truncated state that might eventually choose to unify with a Syria that loses its littoral to a Mediterranean-oriented Greater Lebanon: Phoenecia reborn. The Shia south of old Iraq would form the basis of an Arab Shia State rimming much of the Persian Gulf. Jordan would retain its current territory, with some southward expansion at Saudi expense. For its part, the unnatural state of Saudi Arabia would suffer as great a dismantling as Pakistan.

A root cause of the broad stagnation in the Muslim world is the Saudi royal family's treatment of Mecca and Medina as their fiefdom. With Islam's holiest shrines under the police-state control of one of the world's most bigoted and oppressive regimes — a regime that commands vast, unearned oil wealth — the Saudis have been able to project their Wahhabi vision of a disciplinarian, intolerant faith far beyond their borders. The rise of the Saudis to wealth and, consequently, influence has been the worst thing to happen to the Muslim world as a whole since the time of the Prophet, and the worst thing to happen to Arabs since the Ottoman (if not the Mongol) conquest.

While non-Muslims could not effect a change in the control of Islam's holy cities, imagine how much healthier the Muslim world might become were Mecca and Medina ruled by a rotating council representative of the world's major Muslim schools and movements in an Islamic Sacred State — a sort of Muslim super-Vatican — where the future of a great faith might be debated rather than merely decreed. True justice — which we might not like — would also give Saudi Arabia's coastal oil fields to the Shia Arabs who populate that subregion, while a southeastern quadrant would go to Yemen. Confined to a rump Saudi Homelands Independent Territory around Riyadh, the House of Saud would be capable of far less mischief toward Islam and the world.

Iran, a state with madcap boundaries, would lose a great deal of territory to Unified Azerbaijan, Free Kurdistan, the Arab Shia State and Free Baluchistan, but would gain the provinces around Herat in today's Afghanistan — a region with a historical and linguistic affinity for Persia. Iran would, in effect, become an ethnic Persian state again, with the most difficult question being whether or not it should keep the port of Bandar Abbas or surrender it to the Arab Shia State.

What Afghanistan would lose to Persia in the west, it would gain in the east, as Pakistan's Northwest Frontier tribes would be reunited with their Afghan brethren (the point of this exercise is not to draw maps as we would like them but as local populations would prefer them). Pakistan, another unnatural state, would also lose its Baluch territory to Free Baluchistan. The remaining "natural" Pakistan would lie entirely east of the Indus, except for a westward spur near Karachi.

The city-states of the United Arab Emirates would have a mixed fate — as they probably will in reality. Some might be incorporated in the Arab Shia State ringing much of the Persian Gulf (a state more likely to evolve as a counterbalance to, rather than an ally of, Persian Iran). Since all puritanical cultures are hypocritical, Dubai, of necessity, would be allowed to retain its playground status for rich debauchees. Kuwait would remain within its current borders, as would Oman.

In each case, this hypothetical redrawing of boundaries reflects ethnic affinities and religious communalism — in some cases, both. Of course, if we could wave a magic wand and amend the borders under discussion, we would certainly prefer to do so selectively. Yet, studying the revised map, in contrast to the map illustrating today's boundaries, offers some sense of the great wrongs borders drawn by Frenchmen and Englishmen in the 20th century did to a region struggling to emerge from the humiliations and defeats of the 19th century.

Correcting borders to reflect the will of the people may be impossible. For now. But given time — and the inevitable attendant bloodshed — new and natural borders will emerge. Babylon has fallen more than once.

Meanwhile, our men and women in uniform will continue to fight for security from terrorism, for the prospect of democracy and for access to oil supplies in a region that is destined to fight itself. The current human divisions and forced unions between Ankara and Karachi, taken together with the region's self-inflicted woes, form as perfect a breeding ground for religious extremism, a culture of blame and the recruitment of terrorists as anyone could design. Where men and women look ruefully at their borders, they look enthusiastically for enemies.

From the world's oversupply of terrorists to its paucity of energy supplies, the current deformations of the Middle East promise a worsening, not an improving, situation. In a region where only the worst aspects of nationalism ever took hold and where the most debased aspects of religion threaten to dominate a disappointed faith, the U.S., its allies and, above all, our armed forces can look for crises without end. While Iraq may provide a counterexample of hope — if we do not quit its soil prematurely — the rest of this vast region offers worsening problems on almost every front.

If the borders of the greater Middle East cannot be amended to reflect the natural ties of blood and faith, we may take it as an article of faith that a portion of the bloodshed in the region will continue to be our own.
AliEnvy is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 07:53 PM   #19
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
U2DMfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: It's Inside A Black Hole
Posts: 6,637
Local Time: 08:58 PM
Re: My brilliant solution for Iraq

Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch
I don't know why no one has thought of it.
Senator Joe Biden has been saying it for a long time.
U2DMfan is offline  
Old 12-04-2006, 09:48 PM   #20
The Fly
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Lindenhurst Long Island
Posts: 174
Local Time: 02:58 AM
Why don't we stick an American flag in the ground and be done with all this nonsense.Just Imagine....That's what the people want anyway.That is why so many come to America!So lets bring it to them! We can call it Arabrica!
__________________

u2fan628 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×