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Old 10-11-2001, 10:31 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by StarsnStripes:
This statement unveils your pathetic anti-American mindset. Clearly, there's nothing the US can do that would satisfy you. If we send aid, we're only "pretending to care" (bullshit!) But, if we cut that aid you will be the first to cry foul.

Amen, Star-n-Stripes. I wonder if she went to the Holy John school of politics.


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Old 10-11-2001, 04:05 PM   #22
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Looking back on what I've written I realize I phrased things rather badly and I need to clarify. America needs to continue to try to do the right thing. We've failed rather badly at that in several instances in the world with the Middle East being one of those places that we've failed. Reflection is a good thing right now and I can damn near guarantee that whatever public face our government is putting on at the moment that they are also reflecting on the past and what we can do differently in the future.
HOWEVER, some people will never be satisfied. For reasons both understandable AND paranoid some people and some nations will always think the worst of the United States. Patti Jones for instance, although a seemingly nice enough woman doesn't even think that Al'Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden are responsible for the September 11 attacks. She also is seemingly convinced that the U.S. military is slaughtering civilians. She suggests that we try to do better. I agree with her but with one caveat: We have to understand that we will never please people like her. Nothing that we do will be enough and everything that we do will be too much.
It's a horrible thing to acknowledge but if only 20 civilians have been killed after three days of heavy bombing by the most powerful air force in the world I would characterize that as both fortunate and remarkable. I was steeling myself for hundreds of innocent deaths.
Remember that when we started the bombing (heck, before we even sent the planes to the Middle East!) many were convinced that the U.S. was set to slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocent men, women and children. There was much gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands about the upcoming "slaughter" but that looks a little silly in retrospect doesn't it?

Can we do better? Yes, of course we can. Should we listen to voices of dissent? Yes, we must for our own sakes and our integrity. But should we take all criticisms to heart? No, absolutely not. Sometimes you've just got to say it: Fuck 'em.

MAP (the u2 fan formerly known as MP)
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Old 10-11-2001, 09:13 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by StarsnStripes:
[b]
Wake up, Patti, we heard that in the US also. Our attacks are not targeting civilian areas, some people were just at the wrong place at the wrong time.


I try to stay as awake as the news allowe me. But, i repeat, CNN en español has the images (if you get the channel, otherwise i think they can be found in cnnenespanol.com) of HOMES destroyed by the bombings. And up to today (with the Tuesday, Wednesday and todays bombing) we have 200 civilians dead. Your army bombed a Mosque and not Mula Omar's one...D'you read this in your newspapers?...D'you still believe you dont have civilians targets?

This statement unveils your pathetic anti-American mindset. Clearly, there's nothing the US can do that would satisfy you. If we send aid, we're only "pretending to care" (bullshit!) But, if we cut that aid you will be the first to cry foul.
I cant believe what i read here, boy! c'mon! First of all, i don't hate US (sorry, for me America is the whole continent, since im american too) . This is just a forum...and I read a lot of things I can see ppl out here does not share...so i send my point of wiew...

If you are sending this aid and it is not working, or it is making the things worst, does it make any sence to keep wasting money in it? Does it show your worry for Afghani ppl or it is just that you don't care about what ONG like the Red Cross and MSF are asking for? Answer me that, please.

Avoid the whole rest, consider this: If you are bombing a country and sending aid to the ppl to prove that country's ppl that you care about them and that aid is damaging that ppl: Is it a good thing to keep wasting money and time and food to show that ppl something that they are not seein? If the help only make the things worst? Please answer me that.

I really expect you as the bigger country on earth to do the things better...it is my humble opinion...but i dont want you to stop being the first country or whatever you are, my country is a LOT worse than yours in many topics and a LOT better in some others.

Again too long, cya!
Love and Peace on earth!

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Old 10-11-2001, 09:23 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
[b] -----------------------------------------
Originally posted by StarsnStripes:
This statement unveils your pathetic anti-American mindset. Clearly, there's nothing the US can do that would satisfy you. If we send aid, we're only "pretending to care" (bullshit!) But, if we cut that aid you will be the first to cry foul.
---------------------------------------

Amen, Star-n-Stripes. I wonder if she went to the Holy John school of politics.
I dont mean to say this, but, i could have answered that that statement shows your "stupid patriotism" no matter if your country is right or not...It is like "if we have killed 6000 ppl in other country it is OK, 'cos we are US"...that only shows your negative to improve your bad attitudes 'cos "Im attacking US".

Anyway, i don't think so, I still believe you can start to think leaving your patriotism behind ('cos who may be wrong here is the US press and not your WHOLE country, perhaps), but it is a way to show you that Im not treating you with a lack of respect, as you are treating me.

Love and peace on earth.

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Old 10-11-2001, 09:38 PM   #25
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Patti, I find a couple things very curious about your statements.

First, you still doubt that Al Queda was involved? Gimme a break. Just who do you think put this together? I would argue that even if they weren't involved our current actions are very much justified, but there is little reason to believe they weren't behind this.

Secondly, why do you assume that the destroyed houses you saw were the result of our bombs? Look at the footage...one can't tell the difference from a month ago to today. The country is a wasteland and many houses lay destroyed long before we did dropped a single bomb. The Soviets took care of that, and the civil war has taken out untold numbers of structures in the decade since.

Some Afghan civilians have died, and more will. Such is the nature of war, as unfortunate as it is. But we don't target civilians; they do. Shit...they target their own, and rest assured that the Taliban wouldn't hesitate to kill significant numbers of Afghan people and try to lay the blame on us.

[This message has been edited by MSU2mike (edited 10-11-2001).]
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Old 10-11-2001, 09:51 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matthew_Page2000:
States. Patti Jones for instance, although a seemingly nice enough woman doesn't even think that Al'Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden are responsible for the September 11 attacks.
First of all, thanx for the nice thing. Hey! I dont want to be rough, and Im always afraid of being missundestood...

Let me give you the example of why i don't think it was Bin Laden & Co. If you are able to blow a US embassy, killing 200 unitedstatians ('cos in the embassy they had native ppl) and send a comunicate in wich you say "Yes, it was me" as Bin Laden has done before; why would you be afraid of saying "It was me" this time? And he didnt remaint silent, he said "IT WASNT ME". I think of two options:

1) It wasnt Bin Laden
2) US does not give a damn of what happens outside their boundaries and so if I blow an embassy in another country nothing will happen to me, but if I do it inside the country they will try to kill me.

Result: And here it is a good proff of my respect for the US: As I don't think you don't give a damn of what happens outside the US, I think it wasnt Bin Laden.

Quote:
She also is seemingly convinced that the U.S. military is slaughtering civilians.
You are not "slaughtering" civilians you are just not taking enough care of where are you bombing...and I repeat: you bombed a Mosque.

Quote:
She suggests that we try to do better. I agree with her but with one caveat: We have to understand that we will never please people like her. Nothing that we do will be enough and everything that we do will be too much.
This is not true, i have said that i support your work with the "South Alliance" to help them to take the Taliban out of Afghanistan, I've said that the Taliban are having what they deserve for the way they answered to your demands (But again, I dont think it was Al Q'aeda) and all, but you only seem to remember what i said i disagree with sniff

Quote:
It's a horrible thing to acknowledge but if only 20 civilians have been killed after three days of heavy bombing by the most powerful air force in the world I would characterize that as both fortunate and remarkable. I was steeling myself for hundreds of innocent deaths.
Well, today you have them: 200 civilians dead.

Quote:
Remember that when we started the bombing (heck, before we even sent the planes to the Middle East!)
Yes, how wonderfull machines you have that can bomb a country without being on! lol
The press was tought with you in that. And I remember it.

Quote:
many were convinced that the U.S. was set to slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocent men, women and children. There was much gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands about the upcoming "slaughter" but that looks a little silly in retrospect doesn't it?
Not that much. Im afraid that, if we have 200 deaths up to today and this will last years we will have more than 6000 afghani ppl dead.

Quote:
Can we do better? Yes, of course we can. Should we listen to voices of dissent? Yes, we must for our own sakes and our integrity. But should we take all criticisms to heart? No, absolutely not. Sometimes you've just got to say it: Fuck 'em.
MAP (the u2 fan formerly known as MP)
You know, keep saying "fuck them" and privilege your "sake and dignity" it is what will keep terrorist organization ('cos i think there are more than Al Q'aeda) fighting against you...and I KNOW you are strong enought to raise upon every attack they commint, but, how many lifes this will cost?

Love and peace on earth!

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Old 10-11-2001, 10:02 PM   #27
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I might be wrong...but I'm not really sure if bin Laden has ever clearly admitted guilt for any of his attacks. The closest was in one of his training videos months after the Navy ship bombing, but he still didn't clearly say 'I did it'.
But I might be wrong....
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Old 10-11-2001, 10:17 PM   #28
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Originally posted by TylerDurden:
I might be wrong...but I'm not really sure if bin Laden has ever clearly admitted guilt for any of his attacks. The closest was in one of his training videos months after the Navy ship bombing, but he still didn't clearly say 'I did it'.
But I might be wrong....
He hasn't said "I did it" to my knowledge, but the video that was released a few days ago (and apparently recorded some time back) seemed to be a pretty clear indication that he was responsible. Saying that there would be more hijackings and we should be fearful looked like a pretty solid confession to me.

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Old 10-11-2001, 11:07 PM   #29
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One thing we need to keep in mind re: terrorists' "admissions" is that in some attacks, SEVERAL different groups have independently claimed to do one attack, while others have never been claimed by anyone! Oftentimes, these groups will claim an attack for popularity, or one will accuse another of doing it. And especially is it rare when one individual will claim responsibility for an attack; keep in mind that The Osama is likely the "mastermind" behind such attacks; as he devises them and finances them, they don't want to put too much focus on his involvement as they don't want to Arab governments to realize "Hey, this guy WAS involved!" and turn him over.

Do you like Al Qaeda? I promise I am just curious.

~U2Alabama
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Old 10-11-2001, 11:08 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by MSU2mike:
Patti, I find a couple things very curious about your statements.

First, you still doubt that Al Queda was involved? Gimme a break. Just who do you think put this together? I would argue that even if they weren't involved our current actions are very much justified, but there is little reason to believe they weren't behind this.
I answer this in another post.

[quote]
Secondly, why do you assume that the destroyed houses you saw were the result of our bombs? Look at the footage...one can't tell the difference from a month ago to today. The country is a wasteland and many houses lay destroyed long before we did dropped a single bomb. The Soviets took care of that, and the civil war has taken out untold numbers of structures in the decade since.
[/qoute]

It is a today new that a Mosque has been bombed (maybe im TOO repetitive, but i CANT believe it)...so it all can be possible...but it wont sound weird to me if taliban destroy their city to blame you...but the newspaper said it was 'cos of your bombing.

Quote:

Some Afghan civilians have died, and more will. Such is the nature of war, as unfortunate as it is. But we don't target civilians; they do. Shit...they target their own, and rest assured that the Taliban wouldn't hesitate to kill significant numbers of Afghan people and try to lay the blame on us.

[This message has been edited by MSU2mike (edited 10-11-2001).]
I believe they will...GOD, I cant undestand Taliban, I cant...
But I cant live just saying "It is the nature of war" we are not dealing with a normal war...sorry..i will go on tomorrow...im rally SAD...

Love and peace on earth!



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Old 10-11-2001, 11:17 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:

Do you like Al Qaeda? I promise I am just curious.

~U2Alabama
Who are you asking? Me or Patti?
Obviously my answer is a loud fuck no.
I don't doubt that he's behind it. I was saying more to Patti, that you can't use 'He has denied doing it' as an excuse for not blaming him, because he always does that.
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Old 10-11-2001, 11:19 PM   #32
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Originally posted by U2Bama:

Do you like Al Qaeda? I promise I am just curious.

~U2Alabama
Me? NO! My GOD! I dislike Al Q'aeda and I dislike Ossama Bin Laden even if they havent done this attack...I dislike everyone on earth who does not have respect for human life...and im sure they dont...

Maybe if I sound weird is 'cos Im used to think in a neutral way (Amnesty International work in my mind) 'cos even if he is the responsible im against Death penalty and I fight for every human being to have a fair trial and stuff...again, it is was Amnesty is doing with my mind!

But again, I dislike Bin Laden & Co!

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Old 10-11-2001, 11:30 PM   #33
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No, TylerDurden, I knew your position! I was referring to Patti Jones.

But, Patti Jones, before you 100% believe everything ANY news agency tells you, let me say this:

Yesterday, a law firm in the building where I work receieved a package with a letter and a sticky substance in it. They called police and fire department, and the HazMat team came. The Fire Dept. bloced off an intersection for 2 streets for their staging area, they found it was not a chemical, and NO ONE was taken to the hospital.

HOWEVER, within a few minutes of it happening, a local radio station reported that 6 downtown city blocks had been closed off and evacuated, and 5 people had been RUSHED to the hospital.

As for your claim of 200 casualties, most international press reports I see have the total at 79 to 100. How do you know yours is true?

Also, with the Taliban being a THEOCRACY (religious government) the "mosque" could have had some military significance; just speculating - I'm not stating fact!

~U2Alabama
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Old 10-12-2001, 06:05 AM   #34
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Patti Jones:
I dont mean to say this, but, i could have answered that that statement shows your "stupid patriotism" no matter if your country is right or not...It is like "if we have killed 6000 ppl in other country it is OK, 'cos we are US".


Patti,

You have serious mental shortcomings if you think you can write crap like this and then demand respect from others in this forum. This is exactly what we don't think. The US is the biggest giver of aid in the world. Just because no free Hershey Bars have ever made their way to your door doesn't mean we don't care.

We also put our armed services at risk for the sake of others, then take flak for it. Like I said before, nothing we do will ever satisfy you. So just go ahead and believe everything that your state-controlled media tells you, I'm SURE they NEVER lie.



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Old 10-13-2001, 07:58 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:
No, TylerDurden, I knew your position! I was referring to Patti Jones.

But, Patti Jones, before you 100% believe everything ANY news agency tells you, let me say this:

Yesterday, a law firm in the building where I work receieved a package with a letter and a sticky substance in it. They called police and fire department, and the HazMat team came. The Fire Dept. bloced off an intersection for 2 streets for their staging area, they found it was not a chemical, and NO ONE was taken to the hospital.

HOWEVER, within a few minutes of it happening, a local radio station reported that 6 downtown city blocks had been closed off and evacuated, and 5 people had been RUSHED to the hospital.

As for your claim of 200 casualties, most international press reports I see have the total at 79 to 100. How do you know yours is true?
Well...this will go and go on (The fear) cos of the bombings and stuff...if i answer the way you do i should say "wars are like that" but im really afraid of what will happen, cos im almost sure war wont come here since we dont have any kind of importance (i mean; no terrorist would want to live in a place like this or attack a place like this) but im afraid of how many US more will have to die for this to stop ...

Im not sure if that 200 deaths is true...but i cant undestand the value you give to human life, it is THE SAME 200 than 100 It its horrible! Is this eye for an eye? They killed 6000 so, until we get to 6000 it'll be ok...eye for an eye, and the world will end up blind...

Quote:
Also, with the Taliban being a THEOCRACY (religious government) the "mosque" could have had some military significance; just speculating - I'm not stating fact!
~U2Alabama
Bama, today your pentagon recognized that another bomb has missed it target...two since the bombings started...(This time i heard it in your CNN)

Love and peace on earth!

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Old 10-13-2001, 08:15 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by StarsnStripes:

Patti,

You have serious mental shortcomings if you think you can write crap like this and then demand respect from others in this forum. This is exactly what we don't think. The US is the biggest giver of aid in the world. Just because no free Hershey Bars have ever made their way to your door doesn't mean we don't care.


So you can call my ideas pathetic and i cant say what i should have answered if i didnt care about your ideas? cos i repeat what i sent after the post

Anyway, i don't think so, I still believe you can start to think leaving your patriotism behind ('cos who may be wrong here is the US press and not your WHOLE country, perhaps), but it is a way to show you that Im not treating you with a lack of respect, as you are treating me.


Quote:
We also put our armed services at risk for the sake of others, then take flak for it. Like I said before, nothing we do will ever satisfy you. So just go ahead and believe everything that your state-controlled media tells you, I'm SURE they NEVER lie.
[/B]
First, sure your media it is not controlled...but, have you heard of the list of songs banned in the US media? (Insert sarcasm here) Then i have NEVER said that i have all the true 'cos i know of only one being who has all the true, i said, i might be wrong...you might be wrong...but, just in case...

Sure, nothing will never satisfy me if when i say "i like this you are doing" you dont hear me...

You are SO close-minded guy...*sigh*

Love and peace on earth!


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Old 10-14-2001, 12:50 AM   #37
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but i cant undestand the value you give to human life, it is THE SAME 200 than 100 It its horrible! Is this eye for an eye? They killed 6000 so, until we get to 6000 it'll be ok...eye for an eye, and the world will end up blind...

That's not quite our strategy: we want to take out the responsible parties, and while we're at it, I hope we take out the Taliban as well. It's not our plan to take out the same number of people as they took out, and to suggest such is unfounded.

~U2Alabama


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