nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
ThatGuy said:
His soft response keeps the issue away from Bush. Unless he had definitive evidence that the memo was fake, it would work against him to suggest that they were fake.
McClellan played the game well.
Mr. Bush - Missing in Action?
- Thread starter Klaus
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His soft response keeps the issue away from Bush. Unless he had definitive evidence that the memo was fake, it would work against him to suggest that they were fake.
McClellan played the game well.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
deep said:
This is beginning to sound like sour grapes by the DNC. The issue has been raised in all his campaigns. Bush has answered the questions and he get elected.
If there is hard evidence that Bush should not have received an honorable discharge, it hasn't been provided.
MrsSpringsteen
Blue Crack Addict
How about this for a conspiracy theory I've heard-Rove faked the memos to make it look like someone in the Democratic party/Kerry camp did it
I wouldn't put it past him
I wouldn't put it past him
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
That's rich.
When in doubt, blame Karl Rove.
When in doubt, blame Karl Rove.
nbcrusader said:
Why would he need to keep an easily refutable lie (?) away from Bush? If the charges were false the documents could not be "authentic."
Maybe we'll get to the bottom of the matter when the White House releases all of Bush's TANG documents, again.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
One Wacko Leads the Charge
Bill Burkett, who has emerged as a possible CBS source for disputed memos about President Bush's Guard service, has a long history of making charges against Bush and the Texas National Guard.
The DNC should rely on Dread's advice instead this wacko's charges.
Bill Burkett, who has emerged as a possible CBS source for disputed memos about President Bush's Guard service, has a long history of making charges against Bush and the Texas National Guard.
The DNC should rely on Dread's advice instead this wacko's charges.
Scarletwine
New Yorker
Ta Da
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/15/60II/main643768.shtml
CBS) Last week, on 60 Minutes, we heard for the first time the full story from former Texas House Speaker Ben Barnes, who says he helped President George Bush get a highly coveted place in the National Guard.
60 Minutes also presented documents for the first time which indicated that once Mr. Bush was accepted into the Guard, he failed to live up to the requirements of his service, including following an order. And we also reported that the documents were written by then-Lt. Bush's National Guard squad commander, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who passed away in 1984.
In the past week, those documents have been subjected to extraordinary scrutiny and criticism.
Now, another voice - a credible voice - has entered the debate. Killian's secretary, Marian Carr Knox, describes herself as Killian's "right hand" during much of the 1970s.
She flew to New York Wednesday afternoon to tell 60 Minutes that she believes the documents we obtained are not authentic.
But there's yet another confusing twist to this story. She told Correspondent Dan Rather that she believes what the documents actually say is exactly as we reported.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Knox is 86 years old, and completely comfortable in the eye of a storm. She spent more than two decades keeping pilots and officers in line at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston. Now, she wants to set the record straight about the memos that CBS News obtained.
Knox says she didn’t type these memos, but she says she did type ones that contained the same information.
“I know that I didn’t type them," says Knox. "However, the information in those is correct.”
Knox says the information in the four memos that CBS obtained is very familiar, but she doesn't believe the memos are authentic. She does, however, remember Killian being upset over Mr. Bush's failure to take a physical.
“Did or did not Lt. Bush take a physical as ordered by Col. Killian,” Rather asks Knox.
“The last time, no he didn’t,” says Knox. “It was a big no-no to not follow orders. And I can’t remember anyone refusing to. Now for instance, with the physical, every officer knew that before his birthday he was supposed to have that flying physical. Once in a while they might be late, but there would be a good excuse for it and let the commander know and try to set up a date for a make-up. If they did not take that physical, they were off flying status until they did.”
Did Knox ever hear Killian talk about this, or did he write memos about Bush not taking the physical?
“He was upset about it. That was one of the reasons why he wrote a memo directing him to go take the physical,” says Knox. “I’m going to say this, but it seems to me that Bush felt that he was above reproach.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Knox remembers Lt. Bush well, and saw him often as he showed up for weekend training in 1971 and 1972.
“He was always very gentlemanly. He called me by the name of his father’s secretary. He was always apologizing about that,” recalls Knox. “He couldn’t remember my name. I felt that his parents must have been wonderful to have produced somebody as nice as that.”
But did Lt. Bush get into the National Guard on the basis of preferential treatment?
“I'm going to say that he did,” says Knox. “I feel that he did, because there were a lot other boys in there in the same way."
So what kind of officer was Lt. Bush?
“Bush seemed to be having a good time. He didn't seem to be having any problem with the other pilots,” says Knox. “But, his time there, it seemed that the other fellows were, I’m going to say this, sort of resentful of him because of his attitude … that he really didn’t have to go by the rules.”
Knox says that Killian started what she calls a "cover-your-back" file -- a personal file where he stored the memos about the problems with Mr. Bush's performance, his failure to take a physical, and the pressure Killian felt from upstairs.
She addressed one memo, and a reference to retired Gen. Staudt pushing for a positive officer training report on Lt. Bush.
"’Staudt is pushing to sugar coat it.’ Does that sound like Col. Killian? Is that the way it felt,” Rather asked Knox.
“That's absolutely the way he felt about that," says Knox.
She also talked about another memo which she doesn’t believe is authentic -- but she says the facts behind it are very real.
“It's just like a personal journal,” says Knox. “You write things. It was more or less that.”
“These memos were not memos that you typed, and you don’t think they came directly out of his files,” Rather asked Knox.
“The information, yes,” says Knox. “It seems that somebody did see those memos, and then tried to reproduce and maybe changed them enough so that he wouldn’t get in trouble over it.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Knox says the fact that then-Lt. Bush was repeatedly missing drills was not lost on his fellow pilots.
“They missed him. It was sort of gossip around there, and they'd [the other officers would] snicker and so forth about what he was getting away with,” says Knox. “I guess there was even a resentment."
She told 60 Minutes again and again that she believed Lt. Bush refused a direct order to take a physical.
“Col. Killian’s son says that this isn’t true,” says Rather.
"He has no way of knowing whether that is true or not," says Knox.
Knox says that working in a senate campaign in 1972 became more important to Mr. Bush than flying for the Guard.
"I think it is plain and simple. Bush didn't think that he had to go by the rules that others did,” says Knox.
"He had this campaign to take care of, and that's what he was going to do -- and that's what he did do.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
60 Minutes will continue to aggressively investigate the story of President Bush's service in the National Guard -- and the story of the documents and memos in Col. Killian's file.
Are those documents authentic, as experts consulted by CBS News continue to maintain? Or were they forgeries or re-creations, as Knox and many others believe?
We will keep an open mind and we will continue to report credible evidence and responsible points of view as we try to answer the questions raised about the authenticity of the documents.
Having said that, 60 Minutes feels that it's important to underscore this point: Those who have criticized aspects of our story have never criticized the major thrust of our report -- that George Bush received preferential treatment to get into the National Guard, and once accepted, failed to satisfy the requirements of his service. If we uncover any information to the contrary, that information will also be reported.
© MMIV, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.
sorry about the length but this should put it to rest.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/15/60II/main643768.shtml
CBS) Last week, on 60 Minutes, we heard for the first time the full story from former Texas House Speaker Ben Barnes, who says he helped President George Bush get a highly coveted place in the National Guard.
60 Minutes also presented documents for the first time which indicated that once Mr. Bush was accepted into the Guard, he failed to live up to the requirements of his service, including following an order. And we also reported that the documents were written by then-Lt. Bush's National Guard squad commander, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who passed away in 1984.
In the past week, those documents have been subjected to extraordinary scrutiny and criticism.
Now, another voice - a credible voice - has entered the debate. Killian's secretary, Marian Carr Knox, describes herself as Killian's "right hand" during much of the 1970s.
She flew to New York Wednesday afternoon to tell 60 Minutes that she believes the documents we obtained are not authentic.
But there's yet another confusing twist to this story. She told Correspondent Dan Rather that she believes what the documents actually say is exactly as we reported.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Knox is 86 years old, and completely comfortable in the eye of a storm. She spent more than two decades keeping pilots and officers in line at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston. Now, she wants to set the record straight about the memos that CBS News obtained.
Knox says she didn’t type these memos, but she says she did type ones that contained the same information.
“I know that I didn’t type them," says Knox. "However, the information in those is correct.”
Knox says the information in the four memos that CBS obtained is very familiar, but she doesn't believe the memos are authentic. She does, however, remember Killian being upset over Mr. Bush's failure to take a physical.
“Did or did not Lt. Bush take a physical as ordered by Col. Killian,” Rather asks Knox.
“The last time, no he didn’t,” says Knox. “It was a big no-no to not follow orders. And I can’t remember anyone refusing to. Now for instance, with the physical, every officer knew that before his birthday he was supposed to have that flying physical. Once in a while they might be late, but there would be a good excuse for it and let the commander know and try to set up a date for a make-up. If they did not take that physical, they were off flying status until they did.”
Did Knox ever hear Killian talk about this, or did he write memos about Bush not taking the physical?
“He was upset about it. That was one of the reasons why he wrote a memo directing him to go take the physical,” says Knox. “I’m going to say this, but it seems to me that Bush felt that he was above reproach.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Knox remembers Lt. Bush well, and saw him often as he showed up for weekend training in 1971 and 1972.
“He was always very gentlemanly. He called me by the name of his father’s secretary. He was always apologizing about that,” recalls Knox. “He couldn’t remember my name. I felt that his parents must have been wonderful to have produced somebody as nice as that.”
But did Lt. Bush get into the National Guard on the basis of preferential treatment?
“I'm going to say that he did,” says Knox. “I feel that he did, because there were a lot other boys in there in the same way."
So what kind of officer was Lt. Bush?
“Bush seemed to be having a good time. He didn't seem to be having any problem with the other pilots,” says Knox. “But, his time there, it seemed that the other fellows were, I’m going to say this, sort of resentful of him because of his attitude … that he really didn’t have to go by the rules.”
Knox says that Killian started what she calls a "cover-your-back" file -- a personal file where he stored the memos about the problems with Mr. Bush's performance, his failure to take a physical, and the pressure Killian felt from upstairs.
She addressed one memo, and a reference to retired Gen. Staudt pushing for a positive officer training report on Lt. Bush.
"’Staudt is pushing to sugar coat it.’ Does that sound like Col. Killian? Is that the way it felt,” Rather asked Knox.
“That's absolutely the way he felt about that," says Knox.
She also talked about another memo which she doesn’t believe is authentic -- but she says the facts behind it are very real.
“It's just like a personal journal,” says Knox. “You write things. It was more or less that.”
“These memos were not memos that you typed, and you don’t think they came directly out of his files,” Rather asked Knox.
“The information, yes,” says Knox. “It seems that somebody did see those memos, and then tried to reproduce and maybe changed them enough so that he wouldn’t get in trouble over it.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Knox says the fact that then-Lt. Bush was repeatedly missing drills was not lost on his fellow pilots.
“They missed him. It was sort of gossip around there, and they'd [the other officers would] snicker and so forth about what he was getting away with,” says Knox. “I guess there was even a resentment."
She told 60 Minutes again and again that she believed Lt. Bush refused a direct order to take a physical.
“Col. Killian’s son says that this isn’t true,” says Rather.
"He has no way of knowing whether that is true or not," says Knox.
Knox says that working in a senate campaign in 1972 became more important to Mr. Bush than flying for the Guard.
"I think it is plain and simple. Bush didn't think that he had to go by the rules that others did,” says Knox.
"He had this campaign to take care of, and that's what he was going to do -- and that's what he did do.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
60 Minutes will continue to aggressively investigate the story of President Bush's service in the National Guard -- and the story of the documents and memos in Col. Killian's file.
Are those documents authentic, as experts consulted by CBS News continue to maintain? Or were they forgeries or re-creations, as Knox and many others believe?
We will keep an open mind and we will continue to report credible evidence and responsible points of view as we try to answer the questions raised about the authenticity of the documents.
Having said that, 60 Minutes feels that it's important to underscore this point: Those who have criticized aspects of our story have never criticized the major thrust of our report -- that George Bush received preferential treatment to get into the National Guard, and once accepted, failed to satisfy the requirements of his service. If we uncover any information to the contrary, that information will also be reported.
© MMIV, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.
sorry about the length but this should put it to rest.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
It strikes me that CBS is worried more about its own image than objective news reporting.
So they were computer generated and faxed from Kinko's 
Okay I'll say it in this thread too: WHO GIVES A DAMN IF HE SERVED A DAY OR NOT??? Clinton was a total draft dodger and he served 2 terms as president. I don't understand why it's such an issue now. Then you have Kerry and the Swift boat stuff and what he did after he got home. I think we have reached the point in time when all candidates are going to be of the "Baby boom" generation and we have to expect things like draft dodging and pot smoking. This isn't the 'greatest generation' any more and there are going to have to be new standards.
Did Bush sneak out of military service? Probably. Do I care? No. Did the democrats care in '92 and '96 when Clinton ran against bona fide war heroes in Bush I and Dole? Nope. It's obvious it's only being used for political reasons.
Okay I'll say it in this thread too: WHO GIVES A DAMN IF HE SERVED A DAY OR NOT??? Clinton was a total draft dodger and he served 2 terms as president. I don't understand why it's such an issue now. Then you have Kerry and the Swift boat stuff and what he did after he got home. I think we have reached the point in time when all candidates are going to be of the "Baby boom" generation and we have to expect things like draft dodging and pot smoking. This isn't the 'greatest generation' any more and there are going to have to be new standards.
Did Bush sneak out of military service? Probably. Do I care? No. Did the democrats care in '92 and '96 when Clinton ran against bona fide war heroes in Bush I and Dole? Nope. It's obvious it's only being used for political reasons.
Last edited:
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
Now, it is an important issue for the DNC ...
I guess McAuliffe is either unprincipled or has some sort of memory loss.
Either way, "reporting for duty" is not going to work as a campaign message.....
I guess McAuliffe is either unprincipled or has some sort of memory loss.
Either way, "reporting for duty" is not going to work as a campaign message.....
Salome
you are what you is
I still think Bush did want to go to Vietnam but that it coincided with his vacation
deep said:
If one thinks there is something wrong with Bush's Guard record, it is INCUMBENT on them to prove it! So far, no one has proved any of their allegations. If you want to go on slamming this rubbish against another person without any evidence, go ahead.
Based on your arguement, we should throw anyone out of the White House based on pure speculation and fantasy, or in the case of some, forgery.
deep
Blue Crack Addict
STING2 said:
That is the same logic that supports the FACT that O. J. Simpson is not responsible for Nicole's and Ron's murders.
ThatGuy said:
Incorrect. It was Saddam who invaded Kuwait in 1991 and the terms of the 1991 Gulf War Ceacefire stated that Saddam was required to VERIFIABLY disarm of all WMD. As Colin Powell said in 2002, "It is not incumbent upon the United States to prove that Iraq has WMD, it is incumbent upon Iraq to prove that they do not". Iraq was the violater, not the United States. Iraq agreed to the terms of the 1991 Gulf War Ceacefire which required Saddam to VERIFIABLY DISARM or face renewed military action. The United States and other member states of the United Nations DID NOT HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING! Action on resolving the issue peacefully was required by SADDAM, not member states of the UN.
Scarletwine
New Yorker
http://207.44.245.159/images/bawol.gif[\img]
[url]http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=14054[/url]
Federal judge orders Pentagon to find Bush records
By The Associated Press
09.17.04
WASHINGTON — A federal judge has ordered the Pentagon to find and make public by next week any unreleased files about President Bush’s Vietnam-era Air National Guard service to resolve a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by the Associated Press.
U.S. District Judge Harold Baer Jr. handed down the order on Sept. 15 in New York. The AP lawsuit already has led to the disclosure of previously unreleased flight logs from Bush’s days piloting F-102A fighters and other jets.
Pentagon officials told Baer they plan to have their search complete by Sept. 20. Baer ordered the Pentagon to hand over the records to the AP by Sept. 24 and provide a written statement by Sept. 29 detailing the search for more records.
“We’re hopeful the Department of Defense will provide a full accounting of the steps it has taken, as the judge ordered, so the public can have some assurance that there are no documents being withheld,” said AP lawyer David Schulz.
White House officials have said Bush ordered the Pentagon earlier this year to conduct a thorough search for the president’s records, and officials allowed reporters to review everything that was gathered back in February.
Through a series of requests under the federal open-records law and a subsequent suit, the AP uncovered
[url]http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=14054[/url]
Federal judge orders Pentagon to find Bush records
By The Associated Press
09.17.04
WASHINGTON — A federal judge has ordered the Pentagon to find and make public by next week any unreleased files about President Bush’s Vietnam-era Air National Guard service to resolve a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by the Associated Press.
U.S. District Judge Harold Baer Jr. handed down the order on Sept. 15 in New York. The AP lawsuit already has led to the disclosure of previously unreleased flight logs from Bush’s days piloting F-102A fighters and other jets.
Pentagon officials told Baer they plan to have their search complete by Sept. 20. Baer ordered the Pentagon to hand over the records to the AP by Sept. 24 and provide a written statement by Sept. 29 detailing the search for more records.
“We’re hopeful the Department of Defense will provide a full accounting of the steps it has taken, as the judge ordered, so the public can have some assurance that there are no documents being withheld,” said AP lawyer David Schulz.
White House officials have said Bush ordered the Pentagon earlier this year to conduct a thorough search for the president’s records, and officials allowed reporters to review everything that was gathered back in February.
Through a series of requests under the federal open-records law and a subsequent suit, the AP uncovered
OP
OP
Klaus
Refugee
I hope they release it and step further to more important things (also i know that it shows something about the candidates character) than what one candidate did years ago.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
Now, if Kerry would sign Form 180, we would have all the information on the table and can put these petty issues behind us.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
CBS is now the Victim
CBS News Concludes It Was Misled on National Guard Memos, Network Officials Say
This is actually scary for an "objective" news source. They want to believe the false memos and will continue to report the viewpoint.
It sounds as if they have made up their mind and will search for facts to support it. Perhaps they should join forces with the DNC.
CBS News Concludes It Was Misled on National Guard Memos, Network Officials Say
This is actually scary for an "objective" news source. They want to believe the false memos and will continue to report the viewpoint.
It sounds as if they have made up their mind and will search for facts to support it. Perhaps they should join forces with the DNC.
Oh sorry I didn't know it was already posted. I thought if this had been posted it wouldn't have dropped so far down the page and there would be more discussion on it (guess nobody wants to hear this 
) Or is this a different story?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=US&cat=Bush_Administration
) Or is this a different story?http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=US&cat=Bush_Administration
Last edited:
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
Same story, different sources.
Now, will the DNC continue to run ads based on faked memos? Where is Kerry's call to stop the attacks?
Now, will the DNC continue to run ads based on faked memos? Where is Kerry's call to stop the attacks?
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