Mr. Bush - Missing in Action?

[Salome]

You need only 40 hours of flying time to get a basic pilots license (I know from experience). GWB had nearly 400 hours in the F105.

hmm, so it took him 10 times as many hours as most others

maybe it was an oral exam

 

[STING2]

Are you kidding? Clinton was governor of a state for almost 15 years before he became president. Bush was a governor for almost four in a state whose legislature only meets once every two years. Hell, John Edwards has more experience in politics at this point than Bush did when he ran for office. Putting an oil company into bankruptcy in Texas and trading awat Sammy Sosa does not make a president. What was Bush even doing before his failed oil business in the '80s? what job did he have?

After Kerry's return from Vietnam, he reorganized a D.A. office in Mass. He spent 20 plus years in the Senate and was instrumental in the Iran Contra affair. You can attack his Senate record all you want but at least he has a Senate record. What can you attack Bush for during his time in office in Texas? He killed alot of people on death row. That's about it.

Well, I'm not sure you would have voted for Abraham Lincoln. His record before becoming President was not one of steller success. It was one much more like most people, with its ups and downs. Yet, many argue he was the greatest president this country has ever had.

Bush was governer of one of the largest states in the Union and I would consider that a lot closer to being President than being the Governor of Arkansas. Clinton had 15 years in a small and comparitively un diverse state. Bush had 4 years in one of largest States in the Union with much of the complexity and diversity that makes up this great nation.

Bush won the 2000 election despite your criticisms and has proven himself as president. He has strong positions and clear idea's and goals that he pursues, instead of the more muddled and poll based policies of the previous administration that had a much easier environment and global situation to operate in.

In addition, how one stands on the issues and what they plan to do as president is often more important than whether they were a lawyer or a congressman prior to the election.

I'd take someone with less experience than W(in the 2000 election) over someone with decades in the Senate or being a Lawyer who was against many of the issues and causes I believe in and think are right for this country.

 

[STING2]

Proven himself? Like Salome said, that's yet to be determined. But I still would like someone to point out one thing in Bush's record prior to his presidency that proved him worthy. Clinton showed leadership, he didn't leave his state in shambles and wasn't bailed out of every business venture made.

Yet to be determined? If one can't determine if a person has proven themselves as president or not after 4 years, then how can one even cast a vote for or against that president?

 

[A_Wanderer]

The recent "documents" proving that Bush had been given a pass are forgeries, the blogosphere picked this one up by comparing these new ones typeset to that of microsoft word standard, spacing and everything matches up perfectly.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=12524_Bush_Guard_Documents-_Forgeries

 

[ThatGuy]

Not necessarily.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9967-2004Sep9.html

And you slam the wingnuts at Kos while hanging out at LGF?

 

[Flying FuManchu]

Wow, the forgery issue is now like in almost every major news source... Nightline, AP, Fox, etc... Shame on CBS and 60 Minutes if its true.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I pursue many sources while finding news (NYT, BBC, National Review Online, The Australian), LGF provides links to some interesting articles although many of the posters on the forums are totally insane. Charles is center-right while some posters are downright crazy - so the site is acceptable, arguably libertarian.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

Also Barnes is being taken to task for contradictory statements in saying that as lieutenant governor he got Bush into the National Guard...

from a New York Post Op. Ed.,

"Yeah, it had better. I thought on Wednesday that it was scandalous for "60 Minutes" to turn over a good deal of its time on Wednesday night to one Ben Barnes, a one-time Texas political powerhouse who now claims he got George W. Bush into the National Guard.

"The problem is not, as some would have it, that Barnes has raised half a million dollars for Kerry. The problem is that Barnes has already lied about this on videotape, and I use the word "lied" without difficulty, where he says he pulled strings for Bush when "I was lieutenant governor of Texas."

The thing is that George W. Bush was sworn into the National Guard in May 1968. Ben Barnes didn't become lieutenant governor until 1969."

 

[A_Wanderer]

How long until we see them say, "it doesn't matter if it was a lie, because it represents part of a bigger and more important truth"

 

[Klaus]

I didn't read anything about the faked documents, are these the documents where the 30-something page paper of my 1st posting is based on or new "evidences"?

Salome

 

[sharky]

IBM had proportional width typewriters as early as 1941 -- here's the link to IBM's web site.
http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/year_1941.html And if these documents were forged, what about the docments released by the White House on Wednesday after they told us in February that all documents relating to President Bush's service were released. Seems they lied. How come no one is talking about that?

 

[Flying FuManchu]

Supposedly, CBS was the one who gave/ faxed the White House "those documents" two days before they were to be aired. The White House then released them. This story seems to have legs and there are many news sites with actually fairly credible experts saying the documents are forgeries as well as the son and wife of the lt. colonel just now raising doubts.

I'm not 100% for sure they are forgeries b/c you are right. I've read that there IBM tyoewriters that came out at the time that could do the proportional type and maybe, just maybe, do the superscript of the "th", however there are questions raised about the font and it is not a font used by typewriters such as the selectric. Also people are questioning the memos and how they were written. There is supposed to be some type of protocol, that makes it seem way off. Either way, this story which I thought could be a simple blog-pushed rumor actually has legs now in the major news organizations and CBS is actually "seemingly" sweating it. Not to mention Barnes' contradictary statement....

Hopefully, we'll get a full story or other places.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

in the grand scheme of things, i do believe forging documents is just about three steps lower then withholding documents on the what scumbags do with documents list... especially when the people who allegedly withheld those documents didn't know they existed because, well, they're fake.

i do believe the out right liberal hatred of W hath finally bit them in the arse.

 

[nbcrusader]

How long until we see them say, "it doesn't matter if it was a lie, because it represents part of a bigger and more important truth"

Remember the suggestion that we should put things behind us so we could get back to the business of running the country




Interesting what you do when you are behind in the polls.

 

[Jamila]

Folks - you're not seeing the forest for the trees.

The MOST IMPORTANT thing to remember is that GEORGE BUSH or DICK CHENEY NEVER FOUGHT IN VIETNAM, never had to face the gruesomeness of that situation, because they were able to find every loophole to keep them out of that situation.

John Kerry could have used his upper class background to stay out of 'Nam too, but JOHN KERRY CHOSE TO GO TO VIETNAM AND SERVE HIS COUNTRY HONORABLY.

Those Purple Hearts he was given were legitably won - Kerry could have lost his life fighting alongside his compatriots.

WHERE WAS GEORGE BUSH during this time? In an airplane somewhere trying to figure out how the darned thing worked!

Some intellectual thinker! Some great leader of moral courage!

I really want to trust my future to someone who would try to find every loophole to wriggle out of responsibility.

And someone who is so morally challenged that he never took his flying test - undoubtedly because he wasn't sure he wouldn't crash the thing.

John Kerry served his country out of his choice and sense of duty to his countrymen. George Bush and Dick Cheney were MIA becuase they had NO SENSE OF DUTY TO SERVE THEIR COUNTRY.

They were only interested in serving themselves - then as today.

I'm sorry if the truth offends.

 

[nbcrusader]

Serving in Vietnam was NOT AN ISSUE when Clinton was running for office.

There are unanswered questions whether Kerry HONORABLY served his country.

Now, when Kerry is DOWN IN THE POLLS a leading Kerry CONTRIBUTOR goes on television to smear Bush. And may have done so with FORGED DOCUMENTS.

The Kerry camp has shown LITTLE to suggest that he is a LEADER.

Sorry, but IGNORANCE offends

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

SO jamila, the actions of over 35 years ago should forever stain someone's record? Bush himself has said that Kerry served honorably and much more heroically than he himself did. He also admits that he is not the same person as he was back then. I doubt most of the people in here were jumping all over Pres. Clinton for his actions in Vietnam like they are with Bush. I really do not care what CLinton, Bush, etc did in Vietnam. That was a long time ago. If this is still relevant then so should Robert Byrd's membership in the KKK.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

WHERE WAS GEORGE BUSH during this time?

smokin' the ganga with bubba clinton and hill hill perhaps.

most don't question the 4 months who served in vietnam. some do, but most don't. bush has said many times that he can't compare his national guard service with kerry's time in 'nam.

but ya see... a lot of people, former vets and all, do have a teeny weeny problem with john kerry's testimony given to the senate upon his return to the states. words that kerry himself said were "honest, but on the other hand they were a little bit over the top." words that the north vietnamese used while torturing POWs.

damn them for feeling that... they should just get over it, after all it was 30+ years ago[/sarcasm]

 

[Salome]

SO jamila, the actions of over 35 years ago should forever stain someone's record?

no

since 60% of this campaign so far seems to focus on Kerry's Vietnam past it's hardly surprising though

 

[ThatGuy]

How long until we see them say, "it doesn't matter if it was a lie, because it represents part of a bigger and more important truth"

Was it a lie or did he "misspeak?" If a Republican had done something like this I know that many of you would have said that he misspoke, since he did become lieutenant governor a year later. At the time he says he pulled strings for W, Barnes was speaker of the Texas House of Representatives.

I mean, it's not like he claimed to serve in the Air Force when he didn't serve in it at all, like some people.

If you're really going to parse Barnes' statement so thoroughly I would expect you to dismiss the Swift Boat Vets claims completely since they have been caught in far more glaring and consequential "misstatements."

 

[nbcrusader]

no

since 60% of this campaign so far seems to focus on Kerry's Vietnam past it's hardly surprising though

Kerry did make his Vietnam service a main point of his campaign. He is just unhappy that it is not a "one-way conversation with the public".

 

[nbcrusader]

More Signs of Desperation?

Daughter of Ben Barnes Disputes Father's Claims as Political

BARNES: I love my father very much, but he's doing this for purely political reasons. He is a big Kerry fund-raiser and he is writing a book also. And [the Bush story] is what he's leading the book off with. ... He denied this to me in 2000 that he did get Bush out [of Vietnam service]. Now he's saying he did.

 

[Salome]

true

but since Kerry going to Vietnam and the way he voiced his opinion (I don't agree with the way he voiced this, but I can't say I live under the notion that Kerry is the only one who made these kidn of claims) seems to be such a key issue on who should become president of the USA then it's not surprising that it's also an issue that Bush - commander in chief and all - used his family contacts to stay as far away from Vietnam as he possibly could (I would have done the same if I would have had his contacts btw so I don't even blame him for that)

 

[ThatGuy]

Barnes has been telling the same story since at least 1999.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/US_election_race/Story/0,2763,202917,00.html

And when he told the story then he was forced to.

Compare that to the Swift Boat Vets.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

I'm may be parsing and I may not. I gave information that, if probably done/ said by Bush and co. would be jumped on. Do I believe every swift boat claim... no... I do believe there are probably some questionable circumstances about Kerry, but IMO he probably earned the majority of medals which is good enough for me. Kerry opened up this whole swift boat controversy by making his campaign based on Vietnam heroism (during the convention and his speeches). His post-Vietnam statements in the 70s (which to me were pretty bad of course I have an underlying philosophy that draws me to that conclusion) did not help his current situation, either.

With that said, the Barnes statement is public record, and as nit-picky as it is, it raises eyebrows. I mean how much power does Barnes have as a congressman to get Bush into the National Guard?

Also, the Bush National Guard issues have been around ever since he first ran for governor and probably when he ran for other positions. I don't see them being a big deal now b/c Bush is already President and they never affected by much his previous elections. Barnes, has only made it an issue now for some reason and it doesn't help that he's as partisan as they come. Making a contradictory statement on a national news broadcast is pretty bad IMO, especially if its to smear a person's reputation. Also, ESPECIALLY if he's contradicted himself several times before in other instances (and supposedly he has).

I think this issue of Bush's Guard experience is lame. It tends to belittle the National Guard and Democrats' attacks come off as hypocritcal for the Kerry campaign considering Clinton was a draft dodger and Kerry himself said Clinton's draft-dodging shouldn't disallow Bubba from being President.

 

[nbcrusader]

Barnes has been telling the same story since at least 1999.

So, he is flip flopping like Kerry


And he has the political motivation (check out Kerry's list of fundraisers, unlike the SBVT.

 

[Hawk269]

The problem with Bush supporters is that they have little to say to defend their candidate, so they attack Kerry for things that Bush himself is guilty of. If the American public was educated enough to make an informed choice, this election would be a blowout for Kerry because no one in their right mind would vote for W. The President makes Kerry look like an absolute saint.

AJ

 

[nbcrusader]

The problem with Bush supporters is that they have little to say to defend their candidate, so they attack Kerry for things that Bush himself is guilty of. If the American public was educated enough to make an informed choice, this election would be a blowout for Kerry because no one in their right mind would vote for W. The President makes Kerry look like an absolute saint.

Oh, stop. Kerry has yet to define himself because all he can say is "I can do it better than Bush".

Arrogance is rampant when you suggest that the educated voter supports Kerry.

 

[Scarletwine]

Yes they do unless they are an Evangelical, wealthy, or corporate heads.

I'm sick of this crap. Bush is a total failure as a President.
So in light of his intellectual capability and in the tradition of Cheney - Fuck Bush.

 

[nbcrusader]

I'm sick of this crap. Bush is a total failure as a President.
So in light of his intellectual capability and in the tradition of Cheney - Fuck Bush.

The hyperbole is hilarious.....