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Old 08-15-2006, 02:10 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

whenever you're ready to point to actual facts to support your contentions about abortion -- and from organizations that are irreligious -- then we can have a discussion.
Sooory......you asked where to find this in the bible and I tried to comply with an answer. The science of it is this part: "There is no refuting that an intentional abortion ends life."
BonoVox brought up "I just don't get how anyone can argue that life begins at conception when between the amount of fertilized eggs that don't imbed and miscarriage, somewhere between 30-50% of "concieved life" doesn't make it to or even through the first stages of development."
There's not much to get. The difference betweeen intentional abortion and a natural, spontaneous abortion is that one is "intentional". But, yes, if fertilized, both effectively end life.
Life: "Philosophically, the ending of a life in the womb is the ending of the personal "I" that would have been conscious of itself later on."
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Old 08-15-2006, 02:15 PM   #222
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Irvine, I'm going to answer the second part of your post...

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511 do i have my touchstones? sure. is one of them the invoking of the bible in order to denigrate my existence? absolutely. but that hadn't come up in this thread -- are you mixing up an earlier post of mine with this one?
You did, actually, when you said "also, please show me where Jesus forbids gay marriage and demonstrates a knoweldgeable understanding of a contemporary gay relationship and understanding of a gay identity." It wasn't germaine to the topic at hand, and for me it's an example of a touchstone you have. That's not a criticism -- you have perfectly legitimate frustrations for how you see the church/Christians treating you -- but it was a little out of left field, and for me just another example of how what we're talking about, isn't really what we're talking about. If you have those touchstones that you can't help but bring up, why is it wrong for other people to bring up theirs?

Quote:

i have no idea what you mean by saying that someone has raised "Queer Politics" and that's somehow the same thing by my noting that several posters in this thread have derailed it into an abortion/anti-condom sermon that they view as an expression of God's will. what's the parallel here?
Take this thread, for example, which has sadly degenerated into another "issue" thread in part because of the politics surrounding God -- politics which both the Left and the Right engage in. This thread is hardly an anti-condom sermon. You could say it's a debate on condoms in schools and the nature of abortion, but it's hardly biased one way or another. Have people sermonized for the side they believe in (both pro-and against)? Sure, but people always sermonize one way or the other. My point is that everybody does this. Everyone derails a thread, or has these issues that for them are important. You do and I do.

Maybe we need to come up with a better way of talking.
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Old 08-15-2006, 02:45 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977

Maybe we need to come up with a better way of talking.
Let's just send out a love and peace vibe (how 70's of me) to everyone. I'm serious. I think everyone here is pretty cool, and have good intentions. We may not agree on all but it's a respectful kind of disagreement I hope.
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Old 08-15-2006, 02:55 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
Maybe we need to come up with a better way of talking.
Amen to that. And maybe knowing when to give it a rest, as well.

I don't have time at the moment to address some of the posts in here I'd like to, but perhaps I'll get to that later. If on nothing else though, the initial post was quite clear that politics *was* outside the intended scope of discussion. And I don't really see things returning productively to where they were(n't) before it came up. In which case...little point in continuing.

BorderGirl, I appreciate the goodwill. Let's end it on that note.
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