Michael Moore's "Good Friday/Passover/Easter, 2002

[bonoman]

80's walk away. Dont get yourself worked up over something so petty. He doesnt deserve an answer. He posted this to make you reply he succeeded, he wanted you to reply angrily he succeded, he is making you look mad.

I know your better then this and many others do. just walk away from this shit!

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Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono

 

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by Danospano:
It's funny how a lot of Christians ...drink alcohol...and think going to church gives them a clean slate.

Seriously, where does it say "Thou Shalt Not Drink Michelob Light?" Heck, I know Christian ministers who drink, but don't abuse, alcohol, just as Christ did. In fact, I heard a "daily thought" segment on a local talk radio station that happens to be Christian-owned, and it was an evangelical minister saying that Christ actually wants us to enjoy life on Earth, as He did, enjoying occasional feasts, drinking with friends, etc., and we should remember that it was Paul who spoke more of the "worldly" sins.

Having said that, I may go pop open a cold one.

~U2Alabama

 

[Danospano]

I may have a few facts wrong, specifically the alcohol statement, but those of you that are trying to discredit my general statement on religion based on that one premise are avoiding the main point.

Here's my final word on this thread: evidently there a some people in this forum that hold dramatically different opinions on religion that I do. That's fine. My problem with those people is that they think they're 100% right when speaking on the issue of faith. As if they actually knew why humanity exists in the first place! It's that arrogance that makes me want to argue and put them in their place. It's that arrogance that makes me ask, "where do they get off thinking that Christianity is the only answer to life's questions?"

I'll keep posting Moore's diary, so don't worry about that. I've received lots of compliments for doing so. Anyone who disagrees is welcome, in my opinion, to argue Moore's stance on issues.

and now....go with god. (Notice I didn't capitalize 'god'?

 

[Not George Lucas]

Michael Moore is a big idiot who needs to be kissed in the forehead with a cement block.

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Truth is offensive.
I'm morally opposed to rape, and I would never rape anyone, but I think, ultimately, it's up to the rapist and no one else.

 

[popsadie]

I feel a bit conflicted on this issue. Actually, I loved "Roger and Me" and have enjoyed reading Moore's articles in the past. This one I felt did go too far...but it is only the experience of the one writing it..it is the way MOORE sees Jesus and the crucifixion. Its not written as an objective truth, but rather as a subjective association. While I wish in my heart that Moore didn't see Christianity as flippantly as he does...it doesn't take away from him a willingness to question his world and write articles that encourage us to question it.
So, while I disagree with the way Michael views Christian tradition, much of what he writes interests me..and yeah..I plan on seeing him speak tonight at my campus.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by popsadie:
I feel a bit conflicted on this issue. Actually, I loved "Roger and Me" and have enjoyed reading Moore's articles in the past. This one I felt did go too far...but it is only the experience of the one writing it..it is the way MOORE sees Jesus and the crucifixion. Its not written as an objective truth, but rather as a subjective association. While I wish in my heart that Moore didn't see Christianity as flippantly as he does...it doesn't take away from him a willingness to question his world and write articles that encourage us to question it.
So, while I disagree with the way Michael views Christian tradition, much of what he writes interests me..and yeah..I plan on seeing him speak tonight at my campus.

Heckle him in my name, please.
Before you go frothing at the mouth, Danospano, I'm kidding.

 

[Anthony]

I thought it was rather amusing, actually. It was quite funny, though I have a very odd sense of humour - I found the last half hour of TITANIC funny, but you gotta admit, I was onto something.

However, as funny as the article may have been, I disagree heartily with what you said about 80s, Danospano; he isn't humourless, and he isn't the broad generalisation you made him to be, nobody is. I can see why some people would find it offensive, but as long as they don't become hell-bent on censoring it or become activists against it, I don't really mind.

In accordance with your own theory of seeing life as a one night stand, (I too, think of life as a one night stand, but my one night stand is usually followed by a really bad headache in the morning) you shouldn't really have drilled into 80s as you did, especially when you claim that you don't give a damn about what he thinks. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you did mind. Inevitably, if you put Moore's article out for everyone to see, you will invariably get certain Conservatives reading it and disliking it.

I found it funny, though.

Ant.

 

[gvox]

Wow! I came over here because someone at Wire said I might like the way I can pick and choose topics to train my lasers on...

I want to ask: Can I be Christian, liberal, have a sense of humor and not find that Moore piece particularly funny all at once? Is that possible?

OK, 80s, Ive been graced with reading alot of your posts over the last hour and I have to say that really, its not worth it. You seem to get quite worked up when you cant convert others to your way of thinking. Ive been down that path and its just a waste of time, and not worth it. There are MILLIONS of people out there that think that the whole story is a crock of shit (IM NOT ONE OF THEM) and you will never convince them by beating them into submission with your Bible. As Bono sings 'let it go!'!

Having said that, when we have persons of a religious faith who are regulars on a board, is it in good taste or loving to post an article that we definately know will offend alot of people? There are idiots out there in alternative press websites writing utter garbage, some of which Im sure someone finds funny somewhere, about black people, Muslims, Hindus etc...do we post them up here, or is it in bad taste to do so? Sure, we have freedom of speech, but with freedom begins responsibility.

I read the piece, and Im Christian. In the first sentence, I laughed. However, after the first sentence it became tiredly repetitive. Notably, there were at least 10 more paragraphs where there was little if no reference to his original rant..This is honestly the first Ive read of this guy, but his humor strikes me as too...I dont know...well, not refined anyways. I always admired the humorist that can jab you or someone without even realizing it on the first read, that sort of dry subtle wit that makes you pause and laugh. His is just crude, something like those teen-sex-comedy movies where the rudeness just doesn't end, so you just laugh at how utterly rude it is. Not exactly the most intelligent form of humor, but whatever turns your crank, I suppose.

Anyways, its kind of funny to get all worked up about a holiday that doesn't even fall on the right dates Jesus died anyways, one that somewhere along the way got mixed up with all the paganisms of the Roman's fertility festivals...I don't recall the Easter bunny making a cameo in the Bible, but then again Im getting irreverant too so Id better can it...


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"...well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
BTBS, Rattle and Hum

[This message has been edited by gabrielvox (edited 04-15-2002).]

 

[popsadie]

I asked Moore about this topic during the question and answer segment...he said he didn't mean it to be as offensive as some of you guys see it and that it was an example of Irish Catholic humour. Perhaps it was a poor example...but an example none the less. Personally..I loved the talk, and the majority of the ideas he expressed tonight I believe I could stand behind. He seemed a bit taken back when I mentioned how it had offended some..and went on for about 10 minutes talking about Christianity...and how the conservatives have hijacked it..He quoted some scripture about how it is easier for a camel to enter the eye of needle than a rich man to enter heaven and talked about Jesus's parable of the sheep and goats. Anyway...I really enjoyed the speech and he was really cool and approachable during the book signing...signing out...

Megan

 

[brettig]

Originally posted by popsadie:
He quoted some scripture about how it is easier for a camel to enter the eye of needle than a rich man to enter heaven and talked about Jesus's parable of the sheep and goats

gday popsadie!

I found it fascinating to read Bono's take on that scripture, and his thinking that it referred to a certain gate in Jerusalem rather than a literal Needle's eye.

 

[speedracer]

Originally posted by U2Bama:
Seriously, where does it say "Thou Shalt Not Drink Michelob Light?" Heck, I know Christian ministers who drink, but don't abuse, alcohol, just as Christ did. In fact, I heard a "daily thought" segment on a local talk radio station that happens to be Christian-owned, and it was an evangelical minister saying that Christ actually wants us to enjoy life on Earth, as He did, enjoying occasional feasts, drinking with friends, etc., and we should remember that it was Paul who spoke more of the "worldly" sins.

Having said that, I may go pop open a cold one.

~U2Alabama

Michelob? Sin.
Budweiser? Sin.
Coors? Sin.

Guinness? Not a sin.
Newcastle? Not a sin.
Sam Adams? Not a sin.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Anthony:
However, as funny as the article may have been, I disagree heartily with what you said about 80s, Danospano; he isn't humourless, and he isn't the broad generalisation you made him to be, nobody is. I can see why some people would find it offensive, but as long as they don't become hell-bent on censoring it or become activists against it, I don't really mind.
In accordance with your own theory of seeing life as a one night stand, (I too, think of life as a one night stand, but my one night stand is usually followed by a really bad headache in the morning) you shouldn't really have drilled into 80s as you did, especially when you claim that you don't give a damn about what he thinks. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you did mind. Inevitably, if you put Moore's article out for everyone to see, you will invariably get certain Conservatives reading it and disliking it.
Ant.

Cool, Anthony, thanks a million for the defense, once again!

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
OK, 80s, Ive been graced with reading alot of your posts over the last hour and I have to say that really, its not worth it. You seem to get quite worked up when you cant convert others to your way of thinking. Ive been down that path and its just a waste of time, and not worth it. There are MILLIONS of people out there that think that the whole story is a crock of shit (IM NOT ONE OF THEM) and you will never convince them by beating them into submission with your Bible. As Bono sings 'let it go!'!

Show me where I "beat people into submission with my Bible". Show me an instance where I do that. What I do is defend my faith, as the Bible says always be ready to do. I also wasn't getting "all worked up" because I can't convert people into my way of thinking. Where you got that ridiculous idea is totally beyond me. I got "all worked up" by a column I found offensive to my faith. Is that so hard to imagine?
I've taken a lot of crud for my reaction to this post. From people who don't subscribe to the faith, I can understand that. But for you, a Christian, to come in and lambast me for getting "all worked up" over something that I found insulting to my faith; well, that takes the cake. To come in here, as a Christian, and level false and baseless claims of "bible bashing" against another Christian; that stings.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 04-16-2002).]

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by popsadie:
I asked Moore about this topic during the question and answer segment...he said he didn't mean it to be as offensive as some of you guys see it and that it was an example of Irish Catholic humour. Perhaps it was a poor example...but an example none the less. Megan

Hi Megan, thanks for asking him. For the record, the following are the bits I find particularly offensive, and why:

"I mean, for Christ's sake, a guy got nailed to death on a cross!"
Using the Lord's name in vain, when discussing something as holy as Christ's sacrifice. I don't find the "play on words" funny at all.

"Instead, we get his corpse hammered into wood and hung above every altar."
Speaking of the crucifixion and of Christ's grand sacrfice irreverantly.

"It's like the Democrats deciding to replace the donkey as their symbol with JFK's brains being blown out the back of his head. Who'd vote for the candidate with that image next to his or her name on the ballot?"
Once again, speaking in an irreverant and flippant tone about The Lord's sacrifice.

What really chaps my hide about the above three quotes is not that Moore doesn't seem to understand why Christians and Catholics concentrate so much on the crucifixion. If he had asked the questions simply, as in "Why do Christians concentrate on the crucufixion", I would have been glad to send him a letter explaining why. It's the way he words the questions that offends; he purposefully uses language that belittles Christians and the faith. Maybe that's just the way he wrods thing; well, he ought to be careful when he talks about things as important and dear to people's hearts as their faith.

the "yours from inside his own private golgotha" quote was just icing on the cake for me. Here he had been, carrying on in his insulting way about Christians (particularly Catholics) and the importance we place on the cross, and then has the nerve to compare his problems to the suffering of Christ on the cross. The gall of the man!

There, those are the main things about this article that I find offensive.

 

[gvox]

Im not going to hit this one directly 80s as Ive already responded amply in my other post, on a different thread. It will probably be a good idea tho to try to keep all the threads seperate for brevity.

I doubt you physically beat anyone over the head with your bible, but given your penchant for strict word-for-word literalistic interpretation of scripture, I can see how you have perhaps misunderstood me. My point was, and still is, you spend a lot of time yelling My Brand Of Christianity is Better/More Acceptable to God/More Christian Than Yours, and that's neither in the spirit of what Christ taught nor is it worth it.

You just need to cool out a bit, and remember that anything you are posting here is *your opinion*, just as anything I post is *my opinion*.

Damn man, I hope you don't sit on the Judgement Committee...I doubt many of us would make it through the gates if that were the case...lol...thats supposed to be humorous..just to clarify that..

Gabriel


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"...well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
BTBS, Rattle and Hum

[This message has been edited by gabrielvox (edited 04-16-2002).]

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
me. My point was, and still is, you spend a lot of time yelling My Brand Of Christianity is Better/More Acceptable to God/More Christian Than Yours, and that's neither in the spirit of what Christ taught nor is it worth it.

I have never yelled "My Brand Of Christianity is Better/More Acceptable to God/More Christian Than Yours". You can't find a single post where I have done this toward Catholicism, Methodists, or any other Christian denomination. Fact is, I believe that there is no "brand of Christianity" that denies the deity of God. To be quite frank with you, there are certain religions that I believe are NOT Christian denominations, and when they claim they are, I believe they are bearing false witness, and part of my responsibility as a Christian is to speak the truth against false religions. If that is politically incorrect (as it appears many people think it is), then so be it.

 

[gvox]

I have never yelled "My Brand Of Christianity is Better/More Acceptable to God/More Christian Than Yours". You can't find a single post where I have..

You are hilarious 80s. Of course I wasn't directly quoting you, that's why I didn't use quotation marks. Of course I can't pick out a single post where you say, and I now quote "My Brand Of Christianity is Better/More Acceptable to God/More Christian Than Yours"...I was speaking to the spirit of a large number of your posts on religion.

*sigh*

Personally, it is my opinion that if you feel that strongly that it is your duty to preach the 'truth' so vehemently, you might be better to start a new thread called The Gospel According to 80sU2IsBest.

Gabriel


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"...well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
BTBS, Rattle and Hum

 

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
Personally, it is my opinion that if you feel that strongly that it is your duty to preach the 'truth' so vehemently, you might be better to start a new thread called The Gospel According to 80sU2IsBest.

Gabriel

Bring It On.. I've been waiting for a Thread to challenge the Pure Genius and Outstanding Excellence of My 'DoucheTastic Poetry Thread' for the title of 'Best in Interference'.

L.Unplugged

 

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:

What really chaps my hide...

80s, you and I may never agree on religion and politics, but I love it when you talk like this.

 

[babble]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
To be quite frank with you, there are certain religions that I believe are NOT Christian denominations, and when they claim they are, I believe they are bearing false witness, and part of my responsibility as a Christian is to speak the truth against false religions.

Just out of curiosity, which denominations are you referring to?




[This message has been edited by babble (edited 04-16-2002).]

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by babble:
Just out of curiosity, which religions are you referring to.

I won't name any by name, but I consider any religion that denies the deity of Jesus Christ to not be a Christian denomination.




[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 04-16-2002).]

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by joyfulgirl:

80s, you and I may never agree on religion and politics, but I love it when you talk like this.

Why thanks, ma`am. I aim to please.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
You are hilarious 80s. Of course I wasn't directly quoting you, that's why I didn't use quotation marks. Of course I can't pick out a single post where you say, and I now quote "My Brand Of Christianity is Better/More Acceptable to God/More Christian Than Yours"...I was speaking to the spirit of a large number of your posts on religion.

*sigh*

Well, duh. Of course, I didn't think you were accusing me of using those exact words. At this point, we might as well stop talking to each other altogether.

 

[gvox]

No, 80s isnt going to name any by name, he's already mistakenly done that. Good thing I don't belong to any religion, God told me that they were a waste of time.

We might as well stop talking to each other altogether? Wow, how Christian of you!

Im most curious to hear which one is the right one, 80s: oh, wait, its the intolerant fundamentalist religion you belong to! Of course!

Gabriel




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"...well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
BTBS, Rattle and Hum

 

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
I won't name any by name, but I consider any religion that denies the deity of Jesus Christ to not be a Christian denomination.

Agreed. And FYI, Gabrielvox, I do not think he intentionally inferred that Catholicism is "not" a Christin denomination earlier; I thought that too at first, but later in his post I realized that he probably meant "Protestants and Catholics." Catholocism does NOT deny the deity of Christ. It is my understanding from reading his posts over the past couple of years that 80sU2IsBest, like myself, DOES consider Catholicism to be a part of Christianity.

~U2Alabama

 

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by speedracer:
Michelob? Sin.
Budweiser? Sin.
Coors? Sin.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, speedracer, you judgemental fundamentALEist.

~U2Alabama

And p.s. they had Michelob Light for $3.99 a 6-pack at Winn-Dixie last night! I bought 2 of them!

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by U2Bama:
Agreed. And FYI, Gabrielvox, I do not think he intentionally inferred that Catholicism is "not" a Christin denomination earlier; I thought that too at first, but later in his post I realized that he probably meant "Protestants and Catholics." Catholocism does NOT deny the deity of Christ. It is my understanding from reading his posts over the past couple of years that 80sU2IsBest, like myself, DOES consider Catholicism to be a part of Christianity.
~U2Alabama

Exactly, I was not referring to Catholocism at all. I hope no one thought I was saying that.

 

[gvox]

Um, well ok Bama, but I dont know how Catholicism got into this, but suffice it to say that my personal opinions of Catholicism wouldn't be fit to print in this forum, and I would never impose them for that manner. Suffice it to say that the bible said that true Christians would be known also by their their actions, not by simply what they claimed to believe.

I really could care less which religions 80s thinks are 'right' or 'wrong', as far as Im concerned they've all got it wrong somewhat, but you know what? Those that have realized that God's love is bigger than all the doctrine you can argue till your blue in the face are closer to His favor than alot of fundamentalists, because along the way to their enlightenment, the religious nuts forgot just what it means to manifest God's love in their lives.

80s is claiming as absolute fact that unless you believe that Christ is God Himself, you can't be Christian, accept Christ into your life as saviour and God's Son, and be saved.

And that, my friend, is bullshit.

Gabriel


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"...well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
BTBS, Rattle and Hum

[This message has been edited by gabrielvox (edited 04-16-2002).]

[This message has been edited by gabrielvox (edited 04-16-2002).]

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
*sigh*

80sU2isbest and gabrielvox, can I say something in loving exasperation without pissing the both of you off? Maybe not, but I'll say it anyways. Ya'll sound like a bunch of squabbling kids! gah! "You're really showing Christian love" "No YOU'RE really showing Christian love." Reminds me quite well of schoolyard days with the old "take the log out of your own eye" theology fights I had with my best friend. I understand the desire to prove one's point, but do you think that this is maybe becoming more DEstructive than CONstructive? Just a thought.

You're right, Sula. It is becoming more destructive than constructive. I am out.

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

Sula, you crack me up!

Thanks for stepping in.