Michael Moore Responds

[speedracer]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore Responds

especially by news and newspapers which must rightly deal with evidence, fact, and reason as opposed to subjective beliefs and worldviews that cannot and do not apply to everyone.

Uh-huh.

Newspapers and news programs are paragons of objectivity and truth.

Come on. You know that op-ed pages and political TV programs (obviously) present the biases of their authors, and that straight news pieces are still colored at least slightly in this manner.

I'm pretty sure there have been a number of surveys that show that in the USA, journalists are more secular and more liberal than the population as a whole. That's why Christians (using the term somewhat loosely) sometimes feel as if they're being marginalized, even though they're still a pretty solid majority.

While I still peruse the New York Times, CNN and other MSM, I find a lot of news/political blogs on both sides much more enlightening, because they're straight-up about their point of view.

 

[Diemen]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore Responds

yes because not everyone is christian, not everyone believes in God, and not everyone wants to have a theocratic worldview shoved down their throat especially by news and newspapers which must rightly deal with evidence, fact, and reason as opposed to subjective beliefs and worldviews that cannot and do not apply to everyone. there must be a division between the religious and the secular, modern society is based upon this division.

Well said.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

there's no coincidence that your average Daily Show viewer knows more about politics and history than your average Fox viewer, even if the DS viewer is stoned more often than not.

there's also no conincidence that Fox's ratings continue to grow higher and higher and higher.

again... the lefties just don't get it. instead of protesting outside of Fox, embrace it and try to change it. bashing it isn't gonna help, seeing as it's the highest rated news station in america... by a land slide. 9 times as many people watch o'reilly than watch cnn or msnbc durring the same time slot. constantly putting the people who watch this show down ain't gonna work.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

Walter Cronkite believes the media is liberal. Evan Thomas, the editor of Newsweek, believes it too. I believe it. I believe this election cycle has only strengthened that belief and the fact that most mainstream news media are more prone to be like entertainment media (not as accuarate, gossipy, motive driven, and not as precise as they should be) doesn't help me to truly trust them either.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

Oh yeah... it was a fun read from Moore... not as biting which is I guess refreshing. I think he took too much joy in knowing Osama seemingly used his movie for "talking points." But I could be off.

 

[thacraic]

IMO, the average celebrity knows even LESS about real life than most politicians do!

Amen to that!

 

[BostonAnne]

I have a real problem with these so-called "family-values leaders." Specifically because they treat gays as if they're not part of American families. Don't let them marry, don't let them have civil unions...well guess what. Gays aren't some separatist movement - they are part of American families all around. They are brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, nieces, nephews, and in some cases moms and dads - and guess what, the more you ostracize them, the more damage you are doing to "family-values" because they ARE family.

 

[Irvine511]

Walter Cronkite believes the media is liberal. Evan Thomas, the editor of Newsweek, believes it too. I believe it. I believe this election cycle has only strengthened that belief and the fact that most mainstream news media are more prone to be like entertainment media (not as accuarate, gossipy, motive driven, and not as precise as they should be) doesn't help me to truly trust them either.

Bill Kristol, one of the father's of the phrase "liberal media" and editor of the very conservative Weekly Standard and a well known neo-con, is on record as stating that the media isn't liberal, that the term "liberal bias" was the conservatives "working the refs" as you would do in any basketball game.

the media is, and should be, secular. as should our government be secular.

 

[Irvine511]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore Responds

Uh-huh.

Newspapers and news programs are paragons of objectivity and truth.

Come on. You know that op-ed pages and political TV programs (obviously) present the biases of their authors, and that straight news pieces are still colored at least slightly in this manner.

I'm pretty sure there have been a number of surveys that show that in the USA, journalists are more secular and more liberal than the population as a whole. That's why Christians (using the term somewhat loosely) sometimes feel as if they're being marginalized, even though they're still a pretty solid majority.

While I still peruse the New York Times, CNN and other MSM, I find a lot of news/political blogs on both sides much more enlightening, because they're straight-up about their point of view.

as opposed to the Bible, or your minister, the news and newspapers have fact checkers and standards of practice. do they mess up? yes. do they do their jobs well? yes.

the big success of calling the media "liberal" is that conservatives gave their followers tools to ignore news they don't like or that doesn't fit in with their worldview. the internet does this too, where you can only consult the pages or read the people who agree with you. they also increase thier readership and loyalty by giving you more of what you want to hear, rather than trying to report the news.

also assuming that if one is secular -- again, this is a good thing; in the realm of the real, we should all be secular ... it baffles me as to why the president must say "god bless america" as if America hasn't been blessed enough -- or liberal and therefore inequipped to be a journalist is assuming that they cannot do their job. that's like saying, "hey, you're white; you cannot write a review of this latino film."

besides, the best news in america isn't on CNN or Fox, but on "liberal" PBS with Jim Lehrer.

 

[nbcrusader]

the media is, and should be, secular. as should our government be secular.

Is media run by the Church? Do we have a Church of the United States?

 

[Irvine511]

Is media run the a church? Do we have a Church of the United States?

if some had their way, there would be.

 

[nbcrusader]

Well we can always get in a tizzy about speculative things.


There is no way we could have one Church in this country or run this country. Just open up the phone book and see how many different churches there are. Many of them are located right next to each other. Lack of unity will continue to ensure that there is no movement towards a Church of the United States.

 

[Irvine511]

Well we can always get in a tizzy about speculative things.


There is no way we could have one Church in this country or run this country. Just open up the phone book and see how many different churches there are. Many of them are located right next to each other. Lack of unity will continue to ensure that there is no movement towards a Church of the United States.

they all seemed to agree on GWB.

the point isn't that one church will take over, but that a Christian worldview that is far more fundamentalist in nature will have a pervasive influence in Washington and legislation will pass that is from a distinct Christian viewpoint. this is what is scary to those of us who find little use for organized religion and don't share Christian philosphies and teachings.

and it's happened already. Ashcroft. he spend some of my money to cover up the bare breasts of a statue when he was giving a speech. you might also see the FCC taking steps in this direction.

 

[swizzlestick]

Here's 10 more reasons:

1. For 4 more years, we will be killing terrorists where they live instead of the other way around.
2. For 4 more years, integrity and honesty will prevail in the Oval Office.
3. For 4 more years, America will decide its fate instead of the UN and Jacques Chirac.
4. For 4 more years, the spending power will be in the hands on each individual instead of the government's hands.
5. For 4 more years, those who work will be rewarded with more money instead of apathy being the path to riches.
6. For 4 more years, the fight will continue to stop the leeches of society (lawyers) from filing frivolous lawsuits.
7. For 4 more years, the moral majority will not have immorality forced down their throats by the freakish few.
8. For 4 more years, the fight will continue to protect the unborn.
9. For 4 more years, America will be a capitalistic society.
10. For 4 more years, John Kerry will be just another Senator from Taxachusettes.

 

[speedracer]

they all seemed to agree on GWB.

the point isn't that one church will take over, but that a Christian worldview that is far more fundamentalist in nature will have a pervasive influence in Washington and legislation will pass that is from a distinct Christian viewpoint. this is what is scary to those of us who find little use for organized religion and don't share Christian philosphies and teachings.

and it's happened already. Ashcroft. he spend some of my money to cover up the bare breasts of a statue when he was giving a speech. you might also see the FCC taking steps in this direction.

Replace "Christian" with the word "specific" and consider this post again.

 

[Irvine511]

Here's 10 more reasons:

1. For 4 more years, we will be killing terrorists where they live instead of the other way around.
2. For 4 more years, integrity and honesty will prevail in the Oval Office.
3. For 4 more years, America will decide its fate instead of the UN and Jacques Chirac.
4. For 4 more years, the spending power will be in the hands on each individual instead of the government's hands.
5. For 4 more years, those who work will be rewarded with more money instead of apathy being the path to riches.
6. For 4 more years, the fight will continue to stop the leeches of society (lawyers) from filing frivolous lawsuits.
7. For 4 more years, the moral majority will not have immorality forced down their throats by the freakish few.
8. For 4 more years, the fight will continue to protect the unborn.
9. For 4 more years, America will be a capitalistic society.
10. For 4 more years, John Kerry will be just another Senator from Taxachusettes.

1. yes, we've got terrorists in Iraq now, when they weren't there before, and we're creating more every day! lots more to kill!
2. Enron. Halliburton. doctored intelligence. WMDs (lack thereof)
3. yes, "old Europe" certainly got it wrong on Iraq and who needs allies in an unwinnable situation anyway?
4. a republican congress working with a republican president created the massive new Medicare prescription-drug entitlement, passed a new, subsidy-crammed farm bill, committed hundreds of billions of dollars to war efforts, and loaded up on pork-barrel spending. meanwhile, taxes were reduced—on wage earners, investors, and companies. end result: same amount of taxes in fiscal 2004 as we did in fiscal 1999. but we spent 34 percent more. the total national debt has risen 30 percent in the past four years.
5. an no one more than the massive corporations who got, just before the Congressional recess, an appalling, special-interest-written, corporate tax bill that will deprive the government of more than $100 billion in future revenues.
6. and leave average citizens less recourse to seek compensation when they are done harm by corporations that seek to put profit over safety and manufacture coffee makers that explode, pajamas that are flammable, and swimming pool drains that suck the intenstines out of 6 year old girls.
7. you don't have to buy what you don't want, and who's morality?
8. and further subjugate women by reducing what they can and cannot do with their bodies, providing no provisions for the life of the mother, and returning us to an era of backalley abortions and coathangers. shall we start handing out scarlet letter A's?
9. yes, because Democrats are Communists.
10. yes, Massachusetts is a terrible place with it's low divorce rate, great health care, fine public services, and the greatest universities on earth as well as being the birthplace of our country.

 

[nbcrusader]

they all seemed to agree on GWB.

the point isn't that one church will take over, but that a Christian worldview that is far more fundamentalist in nature will have a pervasive influence in Washington and legislation will pass that is from a distinct Christian viewpoint. this is what is scary to those of us who find little use for organized religion and don't share Christian philosphies and teachings.

and it's happened already. Ashcroft. he spend some of my money to cover up the bare breasts of a statue when he was giving a speech. you might also see the FCC taking steps in this direction.

There are plenty of different worldviews that have an influence in Washington. A Christian worldview is just as valid as any other.

This has gone on for decades. Most, if not all, Presidents have professed to be Christians. The Christian worldview has always been present. As a Christian, I don't see any significant change resulting from GWB's second term.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

Conservative and religious aren't synonyms. There just happened to be more evangelicals in the Repub party then the other party. So should the religious people have no voice or be marginalized in this government/ nation (even if you think its viewpoints are radical/ irrational) b/c they have religious viewpoints? I think that sounds like bigotry to me considering how easily we are throwing around the word these days.

 

[speedracer]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore Responds

as opposed to the Bible, or your minister, the news and newspapers have fact checkers and standards of practice. do they mess up? yes. do they do their jobs well? yes.

This statement is pure ignorance. What do you think the most widely scrutinized book in history is?

the big success of calling the media "liberal" is that conservatives gave their followers tools to ignore news they don't like or that doesn't fit in with their worldview.

It isn't just a handful of conservatives who call the NYT, Newsweek, etc. liberal -- they call themselves liberal!

the internet does this too, where you can only consult the pages or read the people who agree with you. they also increase thier readership and loyalty by giving you more of what you want to hear, rather than trying to report the news.

Well, in the last couple of months I've read:

The Boston Globe
The New York Times
The Wall Street Journal
CNN.com
The Daily Telegraph
The Guardian
BBC.co.uk
Yahoo! news
The New Republic
National Review
Slate
Instapundit
Tacitus
Daily Kos
Talking Points Memo
The Volokh Conspiracy
The Washington Monthly
Atrios
Power Line
OxBlog
...

How about you?

also assuming that if one is secular -- again, this is a good thing; in the realm of the real, we should all be secular

So much for open-minded debate.

 

[Irvine511]

As a Christian, I don't see any significant change resulting from GWB's second term.

no, you probably woudn't.

but if Roe v. Wade is overturned, if "sodomy" laws are put back on the books, if certain kinds of programs are funded more than others -- abstience only education, cutting federal funding from programs that provide family planning in 3rd World countries -- then we'll really know we're in a Christian nation.

 

[GOP_Catholic]

Here's 10 more reasons:

1. For 4 more years, we will be killing terrorists where they live instead of the other way around.
2. For 4 more years, integrity and honesty will prevail in the Oval Office.
3. For 4 more years, America will decide its fate instead of the UN and Jacques Chirac.
4. For 4 more years, the spending power will be in the hands on each individual instead of the government's hands.
5. For 4 more years, those who work will be rewarded with more money instead of apathy being the path to riches.
6. For 4 more years, the fight will continue to stop the leeches of society (lawyers) from filing frivolous lawsuits.
7. For 4 more years, the moral majority will not have immorality forced down their throats by the freakish few.
8. For 4 more years, the fight will continue to protect the unborn.
9. For 4 more years, America will be a capitalistic society.
10. For 4 more years, John Kerry will be just another Senator from Taxachusettes.

The best list of 10 items I've seen created in the past 2000 years. Interesting enough, Moses had a speech impediment, much like our great leader now. He was a young man who said God called him to preach. His initial reaction was, "Who? Me? I can’t do that, Lord. You have the wrong person." Unlike Moses, that young man eventually stopped protesting and did as God called him to do. He stood before large audiences with a severe stutter and witnessed for God. He set aside his own ego and personal fear of embarrassment in order to serve God. The parallels between Moses and George Bush go much deeper than that though, both chosen by God to lead the people.

 

[speedracer]

no, you probably woudn't.

but if Roe v. Wade is overturned, if "sodomy" laws are put back on the books, if certain kinds of programs are funded more than others -- abstience only education, cutting federal funding from programs that provide family planning in 3rd World countries -- then we'll really know we're in a Christian nation.

You might like to know that one can actually argue in favor of most of these points without making reference to religion. Shocking but true.

 

[Irvine511]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore Responds

This statement is pure ignorance. What do you think the most widely scrutinized book in history is?

scrutinized by those who already believe. to create modern legislation based upon a text central to one religion is the definition of theocracy. how would you feel if we legislated from the Koran?

It isn't just a handful of conservatives who call the NYT, Newsweek, etc. liberal -- they call themselves liberal!

Where?

Well, in the last couple of months I've read:

The Boston Globe
The New York Times
The Wall Street Journal
CNN.com
The Daily Telegraph
The Guardian
BBC.co.uk
Yahoo! news
Slate
Instapundit
Tacitus
Daily Kos
Talking Points Memo
The Volokh Conspiracy
The Washington Monthly
Atrios
...

How about you?

all those and more. you're not impressing me in the slightest.

So much for open-minded debate.

open-minded debate is predicated upon evidence, logic, reason, and debating what we know as opposed to what we believe. faith is a wonderful, powerful thing -- it's also a personal thing. this is what secularists are talking about: it's not faith, but the presence of faith in public life that makes many of us uncomfortable because it *assumes* a single, correct worldview.

 

[Irvine511]

You might like to know that one can actually argue in favor of most of these points without making reference to religion. Shocking but true.

care to show us?

 

[Irvine511]

The best list of 10 items I've seen created in the past 2000 years. Interesting enough, Moses had a speech impediment, much like our great leader now. He was a young man who said God called him to preach. His initial reaction was, "Who? Me? I can’t do that, Lord. You have the wrong person." Unlike Moses, that young man eventually stopped protesting and did as God called him to do. He stood before large audiences with a severe stutter and witnessed for God. He set aside his own ego and personal fear of embarrassment in order to serve God. The parallels between Moses and George Bush go much deeper than that though, both chosen by God to lead the people.

be afraid. be very afraid. our president was chosen by god.

this is the most terrifying thing i've yet heard, and believe me, i go to some right-wing places on the internet.

good to know this kind of thinking is out there.

 

[speedracer]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore Responds

open-minded debate is predicated upon evidence, logic, reason, and debating what we know as opposed to what we believe. faith is a wonderful, powerful thing -- it's also a personal thing. this is what secularists are talking about: it's not faith, but the presence of faith in public life that makes many of us uncomfortable because it *assumes* a single, correct worldview.

Guess what -- politicians make basic assumptions about things as well.

 

[Irvine511]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore Responds

Guess what -- politicians make basic assumptions about things as well.

point?

 

[nbcrusader]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore Responds

open-minded debate is predicated upon evidence, logic, reason, and debating what we know as opposed to what we believe. faith is a wonderful, powerful thing -- it's also a personal thing. this is what secularists are talking about: it's not faith, but the presence of faith in public life that makes many of us uncomfortable because it *assumes* a single, correct worldview.

Secularists have the same "our worldview is correct" attitude at anyone else.


At this point, we have gone from "no establishment of religion" to "religious worldviews are improper".

 

[nbcrusader]

care to show us?

Peruse some of the other threads in FYM. There have been many abortion debates where arguments against are not based on religion.

 

[pianorocker]

Go Wolverines!

Too bad they're playing Michigan STATE this weekend, not Michigan.