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Old 07-01-2007, 03:58 PM   #141
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Originally posted by Diane L



The benefits of the Cuban health system is a harder sell for me. Yes, they have top-notch medical care, but any society in which people are encouraged to spy on each other is not a good place, IMHO. One of my favorite people in the world fled Castro's Cuba in the '60's, and brought back photos of the crumbling infrastructure after a visit, apartments with walls missing and the like. SICKO made me think about what I consider more important...5 cent medication and being afraid of speaking your mind, or expensive medication and the ability to say that you dislike the current Administration. In Europe and Canada, they don't have to make this choice.


This is by far his best film.

This film can and should be judged on its own.

It is not part of a trilogy like "Star Wars".


I was a bit apprehensive about the Cuba part before I saw the movie.

I am glad it was included.

As for the crumbling buildings and deteriorating infrastructure?

Is it the Cuban government's fault solely or is the U. S. led blockage the larger contributing factor?

We currently only have 5 Communist countries:

China

Vietnam

Laos

Cuba

North Korea


Look at the Chinese economy and trends towards capitalism, the same can be said for Vietnam.

President Bush just had a photo op at the White house with the Communist leader of Vietnam. There were many Vietnam Americans protesting outside, that had been tortured by this regime. Not to mention 60,000 Americans killed in VN. But we have trade relations with Vietnam. And Vietnam is moving towards market economies.

I believe the Cuban exiles and pandering elected officials have contributed to the prolonged suffering of the Cuban people.

Engagement will do more to change Cuba and what we have been doing has only made things much worse than they need to be.

Why do we have engagement in China and Viet Nam and not Cuba?
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Old 07-01-2007, 05:00 PM   #142
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Originally posted by Diane L


I believe he loves this country and wants to see it made better. If you saw the movie, and saw the quality of life in the UK, Canada and France as depicted therein, you would want to move tomorrow.

The benefits of the Cuban health system is a harder sell for me. Yes, they have top-notch medical care, but any society in which people are encouraged to spy on each other is not a good place, IMHO. One of my favorite people in the world fled Castro's Cuba in the '60's, and brought back photos of the crumbling infrastructure after a visit, apartments with walls missing and the like. SICKO made me think about what I consider more important...5 cent medication and being afraid of speaking your mind, or expensive medication and the ability to say that you dislike the current Administration. In Europe and Canada, they don't have to make this choice.

Quite frankly, it makes me giggle how Michael Moore riles up the Right, like the prospect of a Hillary Clinton presidency does. And if the choice is agreeing more with that fat loudmouthed filmmaker or a certain skinny blonde harridan I can think of...I'll take the fat guy.

I tend to stay away from FYM, because I'd rather discuss politics among like-minded people, such as the folks at DailyKos. But every once in a while I like to wind up the conservatives among us.

"What heck kind of drugs are you on?" Hey...I'm high in life!!!!!
His message in this particular movie may be true (I generally agree that the US's health care sucks), but that doesn't erase the fact that he shamelessly uses deception as a means to persuade peope to see things his way. I haven't seen any articles debunking this movie yet, so I can't say this movie is another one of his lies.

Still, you can't discount the fact that his other movies are trash on an educational level. Yes, I agree that he's extremely smart and a great film maker, but he's still a liar. I just don't understand people's love for him. It's like... he BLATANTLY lies and somehow people keep cheeringhim on. I was watching him on Leno one night, and Leno was just raving about how much he respects Moore's work.

Why? It's so full of deception. It's not something to just shrug off and pass as entertainment because this stuff is meant to educate more than anything. It's a sad day when some of the most respected people in our country are blatant liars. Yeah, politicians are no saints, but EVERYONE knows this guy is a fat lying weasel and they still love him. It's like he's sitting on his couch, eating donuts and laughing to himself "hahahaha. Man I can just keep feeding these people complete lies and they'll still eat ip up!!". It's like he doesn't even need to defend himself anymore because everyone knows he's a liar and they've become fine with it because the like what he's saying. It's pathetic and shameful.

Again, this film should be judged on its own merits, but calling Moore a great American is just downright ludicrous.
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Old 07-01-2007, 05:09 PM   #143
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If he is such a liar then his rhetoric and be defeated with factual reasoned arguments, launching a wave of ad ad hominem fat jokes and calling him a liar (a propagandist he is but he can wield the facts to suit his ends and make the impresion he wants).

Why get so pissed off with him? Unapologetically biased characters are good.
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Old 07-02-2007, 05:23 AM   #144
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I don't see what your point is. He's incredibly desceptive and incredibly influential. That's not a good combination. If he's so confident in his beliefs maybe he should educate us by telling the truth instead of BS.

Again, why people respect this guy baffles me. I've talked to people who said things like "I just saw Bowling for Columbine ad it was great! Moore is awesome!"

I'll tell them that it's been proven that the "documentary" was highly innacurate and full of deception and they get this "um... so what?" attitude.

It's pathetic. Do people except Moore's huge shortcomings just because they've become so obvious? Moore may as well come out and say "hey everyone my movies were complete bullcrap" and his fans would say "yeah we knew that all along. We liked what we heard so what's the problem?"

I don't really know how to explain my point any further because it's so incredibly simple.
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Old 07-02-2007, 06:51 AM   #145
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You haven't substantiated the claims that he lies, you could at least go after him for declaring the nihilistic fascists in Iraq "Minutemen".
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Old 07-02-2007, 08:39 AM   #146
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Originally posted by shart1780
Are you fricking kidding me? What the heck kind of drugs are you on?
That's rather rude-Diane is a thoughtful and intelligent person. The health care system in this country is a majorly f'ed up mess and a complete embarrassment for the good ole USA.. Any person who can sit and watch stories about people literally dying because their insurance companies deny them treatments and dismiss it because they hate Michael Moore-well what kind of drugs are they on? Is everything in it 100 % factually accurate? No. But from everything I have read and seen about it's his most accurate and unbiased movie to date. The bottom line fact is that the insurance companies actually reward employees who deny claims and they are all about making profit. Michael Moore didn't make that up, unfortunately. Profit above all else, including human life. And the govt does nothing because they're all in bed with these people.

Yahoo movies

"Sicko," Moore's dissection of the ills of U.S. health care, played in 441 theaters, about half the number for his last movie, 2004's $100 million hit "Fahrenheit 9/11." With a $23.9 million opening, "Fahrenheit 9/11" did five times as much business, though.

Still, "Sicko" had the second-best documentary debut ever behind "Fahrenheit 9/11." By comparison, "Ratatouille" opened in nearly 4,000 theaters, about nine times as many as "Sicko."

Harvey Weinstein, co-chairman of the Weinstein Co., said he wanted to roll "Sicko" out slowly to give it a longer shelf life and keep Moore's stand for universal health care on the front burner.

"The idea is to hold during the summer and just continue to build this thing," Weinstein said. "I just think the debate in this country is going to catch up with the movie, so we've got to keep it slow."

Weinstein and Moore said they hoped "Sicko" would do in the range of the $21.6 million total for the filmmaker's 2002 Academy Award winner "Bowling for Columbine."
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Old 07-02-2007, 10:45 AM   #147
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
If he is such a liar then his rhetoric and be defeated with factual reasoned arguments, launching a wave of ad ad hominem fat jokes and calling him a liar (a propagandist he is but he can wield the facts to suit his ends and make the impresion he wants).

Why get so pissed off with him? Unapologetically biased characters are good.
His rhetoric is defeated by his failure to induce change...

"Roger and Me" didn't curb big business.

"Bowling for Columbine" didn't usher in significantly stricter gun laws.

"Farenheit 9/11" didn't get John Kerry elected.


I still like him as a filmmaker.
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Old 07-02-2007, 10:50 AM   #148
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His rhetoric is defeated by his failure to induce change...

So now we are suppose to expect movies to change the world?
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Old 07-02-2007, 11:13 AM   #149
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So now we are suppose to expect movies to change the world?
Michael Moore seems to think so or he wouldn't make the type of films that he does.
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:20 PM   #150
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I don't think that's really a fair commentary on Moore so much as it is on the complacency and sheer laziness of the middle class.
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Old 07-02-2007, 02:29 PM   #151
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I don't think that's really a fair commentary on Moore so much as it is on the complacency and sheer laziness of the middle class.
Maybe, maybe not. "An Inconvenient Truth" was a catalyst for a lot of complacent, lazy, middle class people getting serious about global warming.
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Old 07-02-2007, 02:36 PM   #152
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Originally posted by shart1780
He's incredibly desceptive and incredibly influential. That's not a good combination. If he's so confident in his beliefs maybe he should educate us by telling the truth instead of BS.
This is true, but why are you bringing the President into this?



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Old 07-02-2007, 02:53 PM   #153
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Maybe, maybe not. "An Inconvenient Truth" was a catalyst for a lot of complacent, lazy, middle class people getting serious about global warming.
Yes, but that was sort of the conclusion of many decades of environmental work. You have to understand that environmentalism, as a cause, and a legal field, has not had much success in penetrating the middle class until recently. However, what happened is that over the last 4-5 decades, grassroots organizations chipped away at preconceived notions so that when Al Gore stepped in with the film, he was the right man at the right place at the right time. But even his work spanned a couple of decades, and many of those years brought no success.

Nothing changes overnight. Al Gore, as much as I like him, had the benefit of 40 years of backstory and changing the narrative. Moore does not have that, regarding healthcare.
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Old 07-02-2007, 05:46 PM   #154
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
You haven't substantiated the claims that he lies, you could at least go after him for declaring the nihilistic fascists in Iraq "Minutemen".
Ok, when I get back from work I'll show you a couple articles that point out MANY of his lies. If you want to see them for yourself they're very easy to find.
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Old 07-02-2007, 05:48 PM   #155
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


That's rather rude-Diane is a thoughtful and intelligent person. The health care system in this country is a majorly f'ed up mess and a complete embarrassment for the good ole USA.. Any person who can sit and watch stories about people literally dying because their insurance companies deny them treatments and dismiss it because they hate Michael Moore-well what kind of drugs are they on? Is everything in it 100 % factually accurate? No. But from everything I have read and seen about it's his most accurate and unbiased movie to date. The bottom line fact is that the insurance companies actually reward employees who deny claims and they are all about making profit. Michael Moore didn't make that up, unfortunately. Profit above all else, including human life. And the govt does nothing because they're all in bed with these people.

Yahoo movies

"Sicko," Moore's dissection of the ills of U.S. health care, played in 441 theaters, about half the number for his last movie, 2004's $100 million hit "Fahrenheit 9/11." With a $23.9 million opening, "Fahrenheit 9/11" did five times as much business, though.

Still, "Sicko" had the second-best documentary debut ever behind "Fahrenheit 9/11." By comparison, "Ratatouille" opened in nearly 4,000 theaters, about nine times as many as "Sicko."

Harvey Weinstein, co-chairman of the Weinstein Co., said he wanted to roll "Sicko" out slowly to give it a longer shelf life and keep Moore's stand for universal health care on the front burner.

"The idea is to hold during the summer and just continue to build this thing," Weinstein said. "I just think the debate in this country is going to catch up with the movie, so we've got to keep it slow."

Weinstein and Moore said they hoped "Sicko" would do in the range of the $21.6 million total for the filmmaker's 2002 Academy Award winner "Bowling for Columbine."
Again, my problem isn't with Sicko (I haven't even seen it). I also have stated a couple times in this thread that I agree that our health care system is very flawed.

My point is that as a whole Moore's work is very deceptive and dishonest. That's why I don't like it when people call him a great American.
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Old 07-02-2007, 07:08 PM   #156
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I don't think Sicko is deceptive and dishonest, and for making a movie about such an important issue when no other mainstream movie maker cares to-that's being great and an American in my opinion. Perhaps there are many Americans who are/have been considered great who are also considered to be deceptive and dishonest in their work. You can't just throw the baby out with the bath water in my opinion. What is that quote at the end of the movie? I'm trying to find it..
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Old 07-03-2007, 04:04 AM   #157
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I don't think Sicko is deceptive and dishonest, and for making a movie about such an important issue when no other mainstream movie maker cares to-that's being great and an American in my opinion. Perhaps there are many Americans who are/have been considered great who are also considered to be deceptive and dishonest in their work. You can't just throw the baby out with the bath water in my opinion. What is that quote at the end of the movie? I'm trying to find it..
Again, I'm judging Moore from his whole body of work, not just this movie, which I made clear I have no opinion on yet (except that I agree with Moore's main point).

You act as if he can lie as long as he cares and that makes him great. If he's trying to decieve us into holding a view on an important issue that's much worse than if we didn't hold an opinion at all. You're making it sound like he can decieve as much as he feels like as long as the outcome is good. That the ends justify the means.

and you bring up another great point. When other Americans who were considered great were found out to be deceptive the American people basically shunned them. They weren't cheering them on even more. It almost seems like Moore's fans LIKE his deception. What you're saying is "well other guys are deceptive too... so why not support this guy's deception?". There's a difference between how we percive things and how things really are sometimes. When we discover highly influential people are trying to lie to us and trick us should we seriously cheer them on? No. That's ridiculous. I can't believe people are even trying to justify this guy. It's so sad that people will cheer Moore on just because he tells them what they like to hear.

I don't really know how to argue my point any further. It's such a basic concept I can't figure out how to elaborate on it any more.

Lying = bad
Liars = bad
Michael Moore = a liar

See the connection?
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:59 AM   #158
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so what if he uses a little bit of sensationlism, nothing he said is actually a lie. Did he put the gun into the killers at columbine, did he hobble the guy in the wheelchair to get accross his point. Did he know about the planes flying into the twin towers, did he make the president look like a complete ass? Did he make your medical system so fucked that people die just so insurance companies can make more money? No.

You know what a great american is? Not someone who does lie or stretch the truth cause really, who hasn't lied in their life? Bush, Clinton, JFK, Truman, Washington, Woody Allen, Oprah, Madonna etc etc have all lie out their asses, yet are still loved and respected, but what makes an person great is saying 'no!' im not going to accept this shit, im going to make a movie and show people what the fuck is going on. What makes a dumb american is someone who watches that, and instead of taking the OVERALL MESSAGE has to rip it to shreds just to feel good about making fun of him and giving one back to the fundies!!!111.
Truly sad.
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Old 07-03-2007, 09:31 AM   #159
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shart, i've read through this thread and i've seen you post that "michael moore is a liar" but you don't back it up with anything. do you have links to the articles of which you speak which debunk his movies?
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Old 07-03-2007, 10:04 AM   #160
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"Sicko" is opening in Birmingham soon. I'll see it, and then I'll know what I think.
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