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Old 07-05-2007, 11:43 PM   #261
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In Sicko, Moore tries to skirt the issue of rationing by going to a Canadian emergency room and finding that people have only had to wait there for 20 minutes. But that's not the relevant comparison, of course. The emergency room is less crowded in places where everyone has health care. The question is what happens for the vast majority of expensive procedures that you don't go to the emergency room for. And for those, patients in single-payer countries tend to wait much longer than in the U.S. and can easily be told that they can't have a particular treatment at all.
Interesting article Yolland, thanks for posting. There are a few points I'd like to address.

As someone earlier in the thread pointed out, Anitram, I think, our medical system works pretty much on the triage system - those in greater need go first. As far as Michael Moore going into emergency rooms and finding happy people who have waited for only 20 minutes, that's certainly not the norm here, in most areas. This is going to get into anecdotal evidence, and I apologize for that, but I think I well represent the experience of many Canadians. If you come into our local ER with the sniffles or the flu, yes, you're probably in for a wait of several hours. But, that's not what ER is for. The acronym stands for "Emergency Room." A cold is not an emergency. However, if you've been involved in a motor vehicle accident, or have experienced symptoms of a heart condition or stroke, yes, you will be seen immediately.

My mother has heart disease, and has been to our local ER several times over the past five years. I've seen her taken in and treatment administered within a couple of minutes, while the waiting room was full of people who had undoubtedly been waiting for hours, with much less severe ailments.

Very recently, she went in with symptoms that probably weren't related, but could have been. I think we waited maybe 20 minutes for treatment to begin. Meanwhile, a man and his wife were sitting there, griping very loudly, about the fact that they'd been waiting for 5 hours. I gathered from their conversation that she's been hurt at work and needed a tetanus shot. She had a bandage on her leg, and at one point she removed it, revealing barely a scratch. Later, she was taken into the same treatment area as my mom. I heard her and her husband loudly complain to a nurse about the wait times, saying that the ER must be understaffed. The nurse calmly explained that it's not understaffed, that those who need to be treated immediately are, and that that night, there were several serious cases that came in. The man and his wife eventually left in disgust.

I'm sorry, but I feel little sympathy for them. Emergency room, remember? A tetanus shot for a scratch isn't an emergency. Our community has several after hours clinics they could have gone to, or she could have seen her own doctor the next day. those are the kinds of waits and inconveniences that Canadians put up with.

As far as experimental care not being an option or available to Canadians? My sister is being treated for rheumatoid arthritis. She went to one specialist for several months, and was very unsatisfied as he seemed to not take her maladies seriously. She asked her family GP to change specialists, and now she's with one who put her in a study that's being done with a drug that would cost over $1,000 per month. It's obviously experimental, but she's in the study and gets it for free for the next 3 yrs. My point here is that it's not like treatments are severely limited with Canadian doctors, and if there's an experimental one for you that they feel will help, they'll get you in somehow.
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Old 07-05-2007, 11:53 PM   #262
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Yes, we work on a triage system. I think it's standardized in Ontario, something like T1-T5, but I am not 100% sure of the levels.

In the movie, I think the people said they waited from 20-45 minutes, but again, that depends what you're there for.

When an ambulance brings you in (even if it is non life-threatening), you are taken in immediately, bypassing the triage system. If you walk in yourself, you are triaged. I walked in twice. Once when I had appendicitis and I think I waited about 90 minutes, as they thought I had the stomach flu. Needless to say I wouldn't go to the ER for a stomach flu - it was so painful I remember thinking I would die. Another time I went was when I broke my finger and I think I probably waited about 25 minutes or so (they gave me an ice pack to hold).

My brother broke his wrist snowboarding and was immediately admitted. My grandmother had a heart attack, went in an ambulance, was seen right away.

If you go to an ER on any given night, most of the people who are sitting and waiting for hours are those who are rather intoxicated, young kids who have ear infections and their parents bring them in instead of going to their family physician in the AM, or old people with bad flu or something. There are also a few idiots who use the ER instead of a family doctor, and they probably wait 2-3 hours in an urban hospital, although, really, that's the way it should be.

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As far as experimental care not being an option or available to Canadians?
That's completely ridiculous.

My grandmother was in one of the first pilot studies for Exelon, a new(ish) and very successful Alzheimer's drug. She was part of the study that included both Canadian and American patients. I worked in a lab that patented a number of leukemia drugs, a couple of which are in research trials now. How dumb can somebody be to think we don't have experimental care here? Hello, that's how any drug made here will be eventually approved for widespread use.
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Old 07-05-2007, 11:54 PM   #263
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Originally posted by VintagePunk


I was accused of not responding to points too, and I think I did. stuckpx's two main points were that 1) universal health care sucks; and then once he changed tactics, that 2) the US government isn't capable of carrying out such a plan.

I think people that frequent here know, you need to bring your A game to this place.
i stated many more points than that, its just people degraded me b/c of my age. i put forth viable solutions which were shot down and also ideas which were ignored. i did bring solid points, review my 50+ posts, just everyone here already has there mind set on what they want towards the health care system and won't partake in any other way.

it isn't just me that was degraded in this thread. it was everyone that did not fully agree w/ michael moore.
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Old 07-05-2007, 11:59 PM   #264
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i stated many more points than that, its just people degraded me b/c of my age.
Bullshit. I'm 16, and I don't feel like I've been degraded due to my age in this forum.
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:00 AM   #265
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Originally posted by struckpx


i stated many more points than that, its just people degraded me b/c of my age. i put forth viable solutions which were shot down and also ideas which were ignored. i did bring solid points, review my 50+ posts, just everyone here already has there mind set on what they want towards the health care system and won't partake in any other way.

it isn't just me that was degraded in this thread. it was everyone that did not fully agree w/ michael moore.
Don't abuse your age, please. You called the USPS a monopoly, you said anyone who worked could get healthcare, and you blamed the population... ALL OF WHICH ARE UNTRUE!!!

There were no solid points, I'm sorry...
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:03 AM   #266
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Don't abuse your age, please. You called the USPS a monopoly, you said anyone who worked could get healthcare, and you blamed the population... ALL OF WHICH ARE UNTRUE!!!

There were no solid points, I'm sorry...
you are completely ignoring my other points and other solutions earlier in the thread, which were extremely reasonable. but it isn't worth debating. i have better things to do, and its a freaking michael moore movie for crying out loud.
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:05 AM   #267
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but it isn't worth debating. i have better things to do, and its a freaking michael moore movie for crying out loud.
That's what this thread is about though...
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:19 AM   #268
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Originally posted by anitram
Yes, we work on a triage system. I think it's standardized in Ontario, something like T1-T5, but I am not 100% sure of the levels.

In the movie, I think the people said they waited from 20-45 minutes, but again, that depends what you're there for.

When an ambulance brings you in (even if it is non life-threatening), you are taken in immediately, bypassing the triage system. If you walk in yourself, you are triaged. I walked in twice. Once when I had appendicitis and I think I waited about 90 minutes, as they thought I had the stomach flu. Needless to say I wouldn't go to the ER for a stomach flu - it was so painful I remember thinking I would die. Another time I went was when I broke my finger and I think I probably waited about 25 minutes or so (they gave me an ice pack to hold).

My brother broke his wrist snowboarding and was immediately admitted. My grandmother had a heart attack, went in an ambulance, was seen right away.

If you go to an ER on any given night, most of the people who are sitting and waiting for hours are those who are rather intoxicated, young kids who have ear infections and their parents bring them in instead of going to their family physician in the AM, or old people with bad flu or something. There are also a few idiots who use the ER instead of a family doctor, and they probably wait 2-3 hours in an urban hospital, although, really, that's the way it should be.



That's completely ridiculous.

My grandmother was in one of the first pilot studies for Exelon, a new(ish) and very successful Alzheimer's drug. She was part of the study that included both Canadian and American patients. I worked in a lab that patented a number of leukemia drugs, a couple of which are in research trials now. How dumb can somebody be to think we don't have experimental care here? Hello, that's how any drug made here will be eventually approved for widespread use.
It's nice to have another Canadian to dispel myths. When politicians of the US media talk about "socialized healthcare," they say it in a tone as though it's substandard and that we're all marching in red, up here.

Regarding general wait times for surgery and specialists (and Anitram, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), here's the way it seems to me - it varies greatly from area to area, and even from doctor to doctor within areas. For example - my mom had surgery early this year for a gynecological cancer. It did wait for several months, but the main hold up was that the internalist she had to see to approve her for the surgery was very busy. Once we finally got into him after a few months, her specialist approved the surgery for 9 days later.

During her recovery in the hospital from this, she experienced a complication (that we were informed could happen) that required her to be treated by another internalist. She got through that fine, but once she was released, there was a question regarding a medication she was put on during her hospital stay. I called her original internalist, ans was told he'd call me back. After several days, I called the one who treated her in the hospital and put her on the medication. She was able to see that DR in her office within a few days, and the problem was cleared up. This was back in Feb. The other internalist I called? Their office just got back to me a couple of weeks ago. He's a great DR and a very busy man, but his wait times are just too long. Now, my mom is seeing the other one, the one who got back to her in days. She's not a substandard doctor, just relatively new in town, and seems very thorough.

I guess my point is, a lot of wait times depend on what kind of specialist you need, how many are in your area, and how big and busy their practices are. But patients certainly aren't devoid of options.
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:21 AM   #269
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Originally posted by struckpx


you are completely ignoring my other points and other solutions earlier in the thread, which were extremely reasonable. but it isn't worth debating. i have better things to do, and its a freaking michael moore movie for crying out loud.
I'm sorry, but this is your problem, you are all over the place, you don't care that 99% of your points are wrong, you keep trying to justify your beliefs with something... The truth is, you never did.

You haven't. Not even close. Show one that hasn't been buried.

It's just not an issue you are very well versed in, don't take offense...
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:21 AM   #270
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and its a freaking michael moore movie for crying out loud.
No, you're wrong, there. It's much more than a Michael Moore movie, it's the fate of many citizens of your nation. Moore was only the one who made it topical.
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:25 AM   #271
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Originally posted by phillyfan26


Bullshit. I'm 16, and I don't feel like I've been degraded due to my age in this forum.
And I thank you for your ability to think. Like I said earlier, not everyone needs vast life experience to develop compassion, thank goodness, or even logic, for that matter.
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:31 AM   #272
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I'm sorry, but this is your problem, you are all over the place, you don't care that 99% of your points are wrong, you keep trying to justify your beliefs with something... The truth is, you never did.

You haven't. Not even close. Show one that hasn't been buried.

It's just not an issue you are very well versed in, don't take offense...
I would quote them, but it is not worth the argument.
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:32 AM   #273
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Bullshit. I'm 16, and I don't feel like I've been degraded due to my age in this forum.
yes, you are also a liberal who has supported everything they have said. of course you would get along.
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:38 AM   #274
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I would quote them, but it is not worth the argument.
No, please do. Maybe I missed something? From what I recall it was "universal health care sucks" and then "my government's inept to administer it."

You also alluded to some bad experience with Canadian health care, but despite my asking twice, wouldn't elaborate.
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:48 AM   #275
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No, please do. Maybe I missed something? From what I recall it was "universal health care sucks" and then "my government's inept to administer it."

You also alluded to some bad experience with Canadian health care, but despite my asking twice, wouldn't elaborate.
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Originally posted by struckpx
I have many problems with Michael Moore. While I find his documentaries to be funny, he gets too personal. Here is a man who has made butt loads of money from his various documentaries, yet do you see him helping the needy w/ it? He is a hypocrite.

In the movie, he totally promotes the Canadian health care system, yet anyone who knows it would tell you that it has huge faults. Yes they have cheap drugs, but you have to wait months due to the shortage of doctors. Imagine waiting 4 weeks for heart bypass or 8 weeks for an MRI. This socialized health care that they have is destroying the quality of it. The only good thing is being an American there, b/c they help you extremely fast.

In general, I have noticed (not specifically here) that people who are for the movie and this idea of universal health care go along with the idea just because they do not back the current US government. Please, really consider all of the dimensions, other than doing it just because you don't like Bush. If this were to occur everyone, rich and poor, would pay greatly in the amount of their paychecks. I love it when Bono says, "Thanks for spending your hard earned on a U2 show." Just think w/ the higher taxes that would be set forth from this health care, that we would have less to spend on the rock shows.

At the same time, we need to ask why health care costs is so high? Let me spell a little out for you. It begins w/ the doctors: if they didn't have to worry about patients suing them w/ huge lawsuits all the time, their insurance would go down, then our insurance could go down, etc. etc.

While our system has it faults, do you guys honestly think socializing health care would be better? There are so many alternate ideas that would be much more effective. It would be a lot higher taxes for all of us and the quality and competitiveness of it would decrease greatly. Look at Europe, you do not hear that much happening there regarding medical innovation. We need to keep a free market so new ideas and competitiveness can continue to flourish.

Michael Moore should not criticize health when he is fat as hell.
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Most importantly Moore doesn't even mention the reality side of his "so called" health care phenomenon of ideas. In reality, health care involves about a sixth of our national economy, hundreds of government programs, thousands of private insurance plans and hundreds of thousands of health care workers. In his movie he doesn't mention this, he just gives these main ideas: Americans are exploited, insurance companies are bad, politicians are ineffective.

Great ideas Mr. Moore
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here's a question for you, who i am getting the feeling supports government run health care idea:

think about other government agencies, such as the post office and how long you had to wait in line there, or maybe at the DOL waiting for a new drivers license, or the time it took after Katrina. Is this the type of health coverage you want? This is what will happen w/ universal health care? There will be more suffering, deaths, and of course, higher costs.

Throughout the movie he talks about HMOs. Well, the use of those have decreased drastically b/c they were rejected by employers and patients, and proves that the free market system works, thanks to congressional lobbying.

Regarding your question, this could help:
- require the costs of all healthcare services to be published publicly, so there is competition for insurance.
- increase financial grants and incentives.

those are the big ones that i can think of.
Tell me where in there I do not present any arguments and where I say "universal health care sucks." Please read the whole thing before commenting, thank you.
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:56 AM   #276
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regarding canada, my friend got into a terrible, really bad snowboarding accident at whistler there. it required surgery, and the service was not what we would expect. i am surprised that he even allowed them to operate on him, I wouldn't, but they went ahead and did. however, we were not pleased with the overall service.
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Old 07-06-2007, 04:44 AM   #277
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And so that one example provides the rule?
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Old 07-06-2007, 05:06 AM   #278
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And so that one example provides the rule?
Where do I say it does? I read that in different articles and reports.
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Old 07-06-2007, 09:04 AM   #279
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oh so because the man is fat he can't comment on the health system? Get real. You obviously can't see past your hatred for him, so obviously nothing is getting through - too bad for you!

Also your comparison of higher taxes= less concerts or somesuch, is ludicrious. Your government is there to help, as much as it fucks you around. I personally would not like to live in a country where people would rather see me die then pay for an operation to help me. THAT is the bottom line. Can't you see that?
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Old 07-06-2007, 09:11 AM   #280
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i am surprised that he even allowed them to operate on him, I wouldn't,
No problem, we can toss you out on the street next time. You're probably more familiar with that system of medicine anyway.
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