Message from Argentina

[Eleanor Rigby]

Hello, friends from around the globe... I don't usually post so most of you know me as drew - most of you probably chatted with me but hardly saw my very few posts.

I noticed you took time to start a thread on my country. I appreciate that a lot, considering these are very bad days for everyone and these disasters haven't made it any easier on any of us.

The number of dead go up to 30 now, all of them but one died murdered by the police (the other one was a 15-year-old kid who was shot by a supermarket owner who was trying to defend his business).

The police acted against all national and international laws - and in case it wasn't enough STUPIDITY and DEAFNESS for mr. De la Rua he claims not only to not know who is responsible for the deaths, but doubts the death themselves!!! Ok, this man will pass to history as the most idiotic president ever... (The organism providing the information on dead since the riots began is an official one).

The law enforcement officers WEREN'T WEARING THEIR BADGES, used not only tear gas but 2 blocks away from my house (I had to run away in my bike when I was sitting in a cyberbar nearby) they were using THROW_UP GAS, which has been forbidden by the UN years ago.

The federal police used CANS AND WHIPS to BEAT PEOPLE UP, including a group of about 15 people who were protesting silently and in a pacifist way, and pushed the mothers of the dissapeared with horses as they were doing their weekly round (remember the mothers of Plaza de Mayo, the ones Bono had up on stage on the Pop Mart tour, the ones which inspired the song "Mothers of the dissapeared"?)

People were held in prison for exercising their legal rights to PROTEST - let's not even take into account the ILLEGAL state of siege that mr. De La Rúa declared wednesday night. The Argentinian Consitution states that the president CANNOT make this kind of decisions without the approval of the total majority of the Congress. This did not take place, because by the time mr. De La Rúa sent the passed law to the Congress they had gone home about 5 minutes before (yeah, right, he didn't get that on time

7 Mothers of the dissapeared are in the hospital from rubber bullet - related injuries. I'm talking about 70-80 year old women.

As the police officers were saying they were only using rubber bullets and they were shooting randomly, you could see the pictures of the DEAD kids and the people holding the metal bullets that killed those guys my age - and the pictures of these so called "random" shooting, randomly aiming to the front

The police drove madly along the streets trying to run people over.

Not only did many people lose their businesses and their lives of underpaid hard work, but died in terrible pain.

Yesterday the police officially "apologised". Yeah, that will do it

So there won't be a happy christmas here. Nothing to celebrate. I feel hopeless. I feel like I would have gone to the Plaza de Mayo if I hadn't moved to the suburbs two months before and being unable to get to the city and probably would have been a victim too - hell I'm 18, the age all criminals are, aren't I officer?!?!

Very peaceful christmas to you all -
WAR IS OVER IF YOU WANT IT (John Lennon)
*drew*

[This message has been edited by Eleanor Rigby (edited 12-22-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Eleanor Rigby (edited 12-22-2001).]

[DoctorGonzo]

I guess it just goes to show that a supposdily democratic government will throw aside everything it stands for when it feels like it is the most convient way to acheive its goals of preservation, or needs to stifle the dissent it is supposed to be founded on.

Hey, where have I seen that before? *looks around* Oh, yeah.....

[Holy John]

Merry XMas (War is never over with them)...

I hope the IMF will put aside its stupidity (but I don,t except them to think of something else than numbers).

I hope things will change in your country and that democracy will prevail... or as we say in french : "un semblant de démocracie" (an apparence of democracy)...

cheers

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United Nations : www.un.org - UNICEF (United Nations Children's Fund) : www.unicef.org
UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization) : www.unesco.org

«Je suis le dernier homme. Contre tous, je me défendrai...»
"I am the last man. Against all, I shall defend myself..."
- 'Rhinocéros', Ionesco

!Hasta la victoria, siempre!

"The one who governs with weapons is clearly poor in ideas". - Subcommandante Marcos

On a mis quelqu'un au monde, on devrait peut-être l'écouter / we gave birth to someone, maybe we should listen...

[Miss MacPhisto]

Good luck to you and yours,Drew. It isnt a Merry Christmas for many of us this year...


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Look...look what you've done to me...You've made me poor and infamous, and I thank you...

My name is MISS MACPHISTO...I'm tired and i want to go HOME...

"Well you tell...Bonovista,that i said hello and that my codename is Belleview" - Bono before opening night of Anaheim Elevation concert

[rafmed]

Feliz Navidad Drew, from here I send you my solidarity, and my support in this hard hour.
The people of Argentina has showed that your country is a big one, with pride, with a great will, and I'm sure you and your people will find the way to give your country the future it deserves.
We'll keep praying ....hermanos argentinos.

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Please...don't make me say please, champagne and ice cream, it's not what I want, it's what I need.

[Angela Harlem]

DoctorGonzo, your government will never allow the American people to go through what the people of Argentina are having to suffer right now. Also democracy doesn't mean immunity. This was an example of bad leadership or more specifically the police system, not the failing of democracy.

Stay safe Drew.

[follower]

I haven´t checked this forum so often, but since the latest events in Argentina, I have come here daily in order to get some insight info and also because of the fellow Argentine interferencers. People here are really concerned with the whole situation in our neighbour country. I´m from Porto Alegre, south of Brasil, closer to Buenos Aires than major cities in my country as São Paulo or Rio. Besides that gaúchos (people from my State) are connected culturally with the Argentine people. I have been to Buenos Aires twice, last one was to attend a Popmart concert in 1998, what a beautiful city.
So Drew thanks for your report, I wish you can overcome this terrible situation soon. Argentina is a great country, and so is Brasil, but unfortunetaly we have almost the same structural problems and incompetent people in the government. Maybe we have been more lucky, that´s all.

I´m still to hear of Pablo (U2@NYC), if you have contact with him, please tell him I say hello and I miss his IMs.

[Eleanor Rigby]

Originally posted by Holy John:

I hope things will change in your country and that democracy will prevail... or as we say in french : "un semblant de démocracie" (an apparence of democracy)...

There's a new president now... but he's from the PJ (known as the peronist party)which is exactly what people didn't want.

Democracy...what we have...dictatorship...what a thin blurry sick line...

Anyways, don't worry, Jonathan. I don't think the military will come back to power, not now. I admit I freaked out a little bit when at 19 hs (they were around the 8th or 9th dead at the time) De La Rua was giving promotions to the military... my mam immediatly started to plan my getaway (I've been youth coordinator in Amnesty International for some time now and I was involved in student's group while I was in school)...!

Originally posted by rafmed:
Feliz Navidad Drew, from here I send you my solidarity, and my support in this hard hour.
The people of Argentina has showed that your country is a big one, with pride, with a great will, and I'm sure you and your people will find the way to give your country the future it deserves.
We'll keep praying ....hermanos argentinos.

Gracias, Rafi. Lo mismo para vos y tu gente - hermano mexicano!

Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
Good luck to you and yours,Drew. It isnt a Merry Christmas for many of us this year...

Thank you miss...right back at you

*drew*

[Eleanor Rigby]

Originally posted by Angela Harlem:
DoctorGonzo, your government will never allow the American people to go through what the people of Argentina are having to suffer right now. Also democracy doesn't mean immunity. This was an example of bad leadership or more specifically the police system, not the failing of democracy.

Stay safe Drew.

First of all, thank you for your good wishes. I'll do my best to stay safe, as long as it doesn't mean I should "shut up" to keep safe...
Then, I think this was an example of many many things; and one of them was, in fact, the failing of democracy - when a system allows this to happen over and over again it's time to question the system. Again, this was in fact a pefect example of incompetence and bad leadership as you say, mr. De La Rua has behaved very unintelligently, but this he is not the only cell in this chain of disaster.
On saturday night, Patti and I went to the Congress palace to join the protests. On the radio, we heard the assembly taking place on the inside. You wouldn't believe the kind of jerks there are in there. And the truth is - people don't want any of them! As the peronist party says they won last elections and that's why they have majority on the congress you couldn't help screaming - YOU DIDN'T WIN! Last elections were won by what the media likes to call "anger vote"; this is, either blank votes or anulled votes.
If the people is so clearly saying they don't want ANY of these people and they still manage to represent us, doesn't this mean there's something wrong?

Originally posted by follower:
I haven´t checked this forum so often, but since the latest events in Argentina, I have come here daily in order to get some insight info and also because of the fellow Argentine interferencers. People here are really concerned with the whole situation in our neighbour country. I´m from Porto Alegre, south of Brasil, closer to Buenos Aires than major cities in my country as São Paulo or Rio. Besides that gaúchos (people from my State) are connected culturally with the Argentine people. I have been to Buenos Aires twice, last one was to attend a Popmart concert in 1998, what a beautiful city.
So Drew thanks for your report, I wish you can overcome this terrible situation soon. Argentina is a great country, and so is Brasil, but unfortunetaly we have almost the same structural problems and incompetent people in the government. Maybe we have been more lucky, that´s all.

I´m still to hear of Pablo (U2@NYC), if you have contact with him, please tell him I say hello and I miss his IMs.

Hello, follower and thanks for your concern - I think both our countries have very similar problems too. Latin population tend to be far too tolerant with its governments, maybe that's why, I don't know.
Then again, paying really poor and desperate people to loot supermarkets is a political strategy that Menem used in 1989. I don't think it's just a coincidence that he's out of his house arrest and 2 months later this happens... remember how he wanted to stay so bad in power? He almost chained himself to the presidential chair! He wants to be back- his filthy political ways worked for him the first time (in 1989 president Alfonsin had to give up his government 6 months sooner than expected to Menem) and it seems to have worked this time too. Let's not forget it's HIS party the one on the power now.

Sucks, huh?

About Pablo, I never talked to him! I wish I could give you some info ... I sure hope he's alright.

Love to all
WAR IS OVER IF YOU WANT IT (John Lennon)
*drew*

[follower]

Thanks again Drew, I'm following the news with my heart full of hope for your people and your country.

Feliz Natal
Feliz Navidad

[cmb737]

Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
I guess it just goes to show that a supposdily democratic government will throw aside everything it stands for when it feels like it is the most convient way to acheive its goals of preservation, or needs to stifle the dissent it is supposed to be founded on.

Hey, where have I seen that before? *looks around* Oh, yeah.....

Excuse me first of all..for going off subject, my heart and best wishes are with those in Argentina and in places where hostile governments lay siege to the very thing they are sworn to protect. I had a friend from Cordoba that lived with me for years and I have not been able to contact him for three weeks.

In reply to the above comment, I am curious DoctorGonzo what exactly your politics are? I read your posts in here and other threads and you seem to contradict yourself. Prior to reading this you seemed very Green and pro-reform party..but this seems to change that. Please feel free to email me at cmb737@aol.com if you would like to discuss. I don't want to subject everyone here with a conversation they may not be interested in.

Merry Christmas Everyone

[follower]

I'm looking forward hearing more from you, Drew or Patti or any Argentinian who feels like sharing the news. How are things there these last days? Have the riots and protests stopped? How about the new government, are they qualified to face these hard times?

I'm still to hear from my friend Pablo...

[This message has been edited by follower (edited 12-26-2001).]

[Angela Harlem]

Drew, I hope you weren't offended by what I said. From what I know of the situation over there, which is limited, it doesn't sound like you have democracy at all. Democratic governments of course can get to power through coalitions and the like, but to take donkey votes or annuled ones show that yours are kidding themselves. I believe that democracy as a principle works, but you are living an example of something that isn't democratic. I also didn't mean keep quiet to stay safe. Keep voicing what you believe loud and clear. I hope you get the answers you are after soon.

[Eleanor Rigby]

Originally posted by Angela Harlem:
Drew, I hope you weren't offended by what I said. From what I know of the situation over there, which is limited, it doesn't sound like you have democracy at all. Democratic governments of course can get to power through coalitions and the like, but to take donkey votes or annuled ones show that yours are kidding themselves. I believe that democracy as a principle works, but you are living an example of something that isn't democratic. I also didn't mean keep quiet to stay safe. Keep voicing what you believe loud and clear. I hope you get the answers you are after soon.

First of all, i wasn't offended...so don't worry I didn't get what you said about "donkey votes".It's not that I disagree or agree, I just couldn't understand your english... just in case, i can tell you that voting is mandatory in this country so if you dont want to vote thats pretty much the only option for you.

The riots have stopped, but the government is made out of this slacker generation of politics so it sucks just as bad as the one before... It's still tense in the air though, and many places have been destroyed and ravaged so the remains of that awful days are there to remind us of them. I don't know what will happen. The new president says he's not gonna pay the foreign debt, but frankly, i don't think he's brave enough.

Ah! Just one thing...the democracy model in ARgentina is copied from the one in the U.S. If you claim that my country is not democratic you're saying that yours isn't either. Watch out.

Take care y'all!

*drew*

[Angela Harlem]

Drew, this got more complicated than intended.

Ok, first off, a donkey vote here is one that is wasted. I live in Australia where voting is also compulsory. But some people tend to throw their vote away by leaving it blank, stuffing it on purpose, not on purpose, etc etc. There are many ways to make a vote non legitimate. We call them Donkey votes. Its a slang term. With this, of course certain numbers etc will go toward a major party. So all the uncountable votes will say go to the liberal Party. Here, like where you are all votes must be accurate to be counted, but you get the certain ones that make up a small percentage that go to a party when they dont necessarily have that support. All in all, its not a huge decider in who gets voted in. The parliament is mainly majority voted. The basics of a Democratic Government. In theory, you do have a democratic govt. You vote, you all have a say. But you said that the party in power isnt the one your people want. So its failed in practice. Without knowing the specific reasons for that, I'd take a stab at it being through reasons not deserving for a democracy. This may not make any more sense now. Reasons such as lack of knowledge of coalition forming, dishonesty or corruption somewhere in the ranks, or an unbelievably large number of votes that are non legitimate being given as support to this party whom you all dont want. So yes, technically its a democracy, but for whatever reason, you dont have the government that the 'people' wanted. When that happens, is it still democratic? You dont have what you voted for. It failed.

I'm not insulting you here, or America, so I dont get the "Watch Out" bit at the end.