MERGED (yet again): All Gay Marriage Discussion Here Please

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Without taking the time to read all 419 replies (in case I'm repeating something already mentioned), I'll recount something interesting I heard yesterday about a man who wasn't against gay marriage as much as he was against using the word marriage in that context. He suggested 'pairriage' as a term for same sex unions.
 
You know, none of this will stop gay marriage. Any number of religions will marry homosexuals, whether or not it is legally binding. All these other names are, of course, to rip out any religious significance to same-sex unions, but that is not your right to pass judgment.

I, for one, will never accept any other word than "marriage" to describe any union I will get in the future, and if I have to shun American bigotry for a Canadian marriage someday, then I will.

Melon
 
"Democracy's not just about majority rule ? it is about protecting minority rights."

L. Paul Bremer, civilian administrator of Iraq, said this in response to the Shi'ite majority's derailing of the interim Constitution signing, due to reservations that the Kurdish minority in the North could veto any permanent constitution. Lest he knew, though, that the American version of "Shi'ites" are ready to put discrimination into the Constitution themselves.

Hypocrites abound...

Melon
 
HOMOSEXUAL marriage is not a civil rights issue.

[Q]Gay marriage isn't civil rights
By Jeff Jacoby, 3/7/2004

HOMOSEXUAL marriage is not a civil rights issue. But that hasn't stopped the advocates of same-sex marriage from draping themselves in the glory of the civil rights movement -- and smearing the defenders of traditional marriage as the moral equal of segregationists.

In The New York Times last Sunday, cultural critic Frank Rich, quoting a "civil rights lawyer," beatified the gay and lesbian couples lining up to receive illegal marriage licenses from San Francisco's new mayor, Gavin Newsom:

"An act as unremarkable as getting a wedding license has been transformed by the people embracing it, much as the unremarkable act of sitting at a Formica lunch counter was transformed by an act of civil disobedience at a Woolworth's in North Carolina 44 years ago this month." Nearby, the Times ran a photograph of a smiling lesbian couple in matching wedding veils -- and an even larger photograph of a 1960 lunch counter sit-in.

Rich's essay -- "The Joy of Gay Marriage" -- went on to cast the supporters of traditional marriage as hateful zealots. They are "eager to foment the bloodiest culture war possible," he charged. "They are gladly donning the roles played by Lester Maddox and George Wallace in the civil rights era."

But it is the marriage radicals like Rich and Newsom who are doing their best to inflame a culture war. And as is so often the case in wartime, truth -- in this case, historical truth -- has been an early casualty.

For contrary to what Rich seems to believe, when Ezell Blair Jr., David Richmond, Joseph McNeil, and Franklin McCain approached the lunch counter of the Elm Street Woolworth's in Greensboro, N.C., on Feb. 1, 1960, all they asked for was a bite to eat. The four North Carolina Agricultural & Technical College students only wanted what any white customer might want, and on precisely the same terms -- the same food at the same counter at the same price.

Those first four sit-in strikers, like the thousands of others who would emulate them at lunch counters across the South, weren't demanding that Woolworth's prepare or serve their food in ways it had never been prepared or served before. They weren't trying to do something that had never been lawful in any state of the union. They weren't bent on forcing a revolutionary change upon a timeless social institution.

All they were seeking was what should already have been theirs under the law of the land. The 14th Amendment had declared that blacks no less than whites were entitled to equal protection of the law. The Civil Rights Act of 1875 had barred discrimination in public accommodations.

But the Supreme Court had gutted those protections with shameful decisions in 1883 and 1896. The court's betrayal of black Americans was the reason why, more than six decades later, segregation still polluted so much of the nation. To restore the 14th Amendment to its original purpose, to re-create the Civil Rights Act, to return to black citizens the equality that had been stolen from them -- that was the great cause of civil rights.

The marriage radicals, on the other hand, seek to restore nothing. They have not been deprived of the right to marry -- only of the right to insist that a single-sex union is a "marriage." They cloak their demands in the language of civil rights because it sounds so much better than the truth: They don't want to accept or reject marriage on the same terms that it is available to everyone else. They want it on entirely new terms. They want it to be given a meaning it has never before had, and they prefer that it be done undemocratically -- by judicial fiat, for example, or by mayors flouting the law. Whatever else that may be, it isn't civil rights. But dare to speak against it, and you are no better than Bull Connor.

Last month, as Massachusetts lawmakers prepared to debate a constitutional amendment on the meaning of marriage, the state's leading black clergy came out strongly in support of the age-old definition: the union of a man and a woman. They were promptly tarred as enemies of civil rights. "Martin Luther King," one left-wing legislator barked, "is rolling over in his grave at a statement like this."

But if anything has King spinning in his grave, it is the indecency of exploiting his name for a cause he never supported. The civil rights movement for which he lived and died was grounded in a fundamental truth: All God's children are created equal. The same-sex marriage movement, by contrast, is grounded in the denial of a fundamental truth: The Creator who made us equal made us male and female. That duality has always and everywhere been the starting point for marriage. To claim that marriage can ignore that duality is akin to the claim, back when lunch counters were segregated, that America was a land of liberty and justice for all.[/Q]

This was the editorial in Sunday's Boston Globe. Many in here have made the arguement that this is a Civil Rights issue. I was quite surprised to find this printed in the Globe. It is the first time I have seen an argument against homosexual marriage laid out in the paper in this manner, directly attacking the Civil Rights aspect of the issue. I think the author is missing the fact that Mrs. King has said that she believes it IS a Civil Rights issue and that in her opinion MLK would have supported the cause.

ANy thoughts?
 
I agree that gay rights is not a civil rights issue. But I also believe that the "all men are created equal" ideal should be a cornerstone of what makes America (as well as international human rights). I say, let gays get married. It should be an inherent right of freedom as any other citizen or human being, and the law should not make footnote exceptions for anyone.

Live and let live.
 
And by the way, the column is built on a fallacy: in that part of the country where the lunch counter protests took place, black people had never been allowed to sit in the white sections. True, they only wanted the same lunch. But they were not seeking a "restoration" of their rights; they had never had them before. One cannot restore what has never been there to begin with. The civil rights movement for blacks was downright revolutionary.

And so is the struggle for gay marriage, I believe, because it is not just about marriage: it is about the "legal incidents thereof" which have long been denied gay partners and have always been extended to straight ones, no matter how dubious the nature of the straight union or meritorious the gay one.
 
I beg to differ. There was a Law on the Books that had been violated. That is the difference. There was a Civil Rights Law from 1875 that provided the legal grounds for equal treatment. In this case, as the author points out, the civil rights movement was indeed seeking a restoration of rights under the existing law.

There is NO existing law in this case. The point that I agree with the author on is the characterization of people opposed to Homosexual Marriage as being the moral equivalent of segregationists. This has happened in this forum as well as in the article mentioned by the author.

The ending of segregation by the court WAS legal because there was an existing law. In this case, there being no existing law, the court does not have the legal right to legislate or order the legislature to do something as it has done in MA. That is the problem that I have with the situation.

Are we going to extend powers to the court to legislate. These are new powers. Maybe it will not matter to some of you on this issue because you support it. However, I am concerned with the precident being set here.

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THIS IS WHY I DID NOT THINK IT SHOULD BE IN THIS THREAD. It is a deeper issue than Homosexual Marriage. Of course, this is not my sandbox. It is a shame, because this discussion quite possibly will be ignored because the thread has become so large that some probably do not visit it anymore.

Of course, it would be nice to see all of the UN RESOLUTION threads merged too.
 
Mr. Jacoby is just trying to justify his hatred like any good bigot would.

It IS a civil rights issue--just as "the Creator" created male and female, we are just as "male and female" as everyone else, except we were created to love differently--and everytime religious bigots like him talk, they just make our case stronger. If I am not permitted to marry someday, then I will, frankly, take my talents elsewhere.

Melon
 
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Melon
 
Dread, you're protesting WAY too much. You keep posting anti-gay marriage articles, then feebly protesting that you don't agree with them. Then you express your "fears" that various court judgments "go to far."



If you support it, then support it. If not, don't. But these attempts to play both sides are getting old and tiresome.
 
martha said:
Dread, you're protesting WAY too much. You keep posting anti-gay marriage articles, then feebly protesting that you don't agree with them. Then you express your "fears" that various court judgments "go to far."



If you support it, then support it. If not, don't. But these attempts to play both sides are getting old and tiresome.

Thanks for the lecture. I do believe we have the freedom to post articles that may have something to do with the topic. I am sorry if you seem unable to look at it from another angle. Your lecturing of me is quite tiresome as well. Next time, PM me if you have a critique of my posting and my opinions. Otherwisse, feel free to not read what I post.


I believe the court is wrong. I am for gay marriage. As a matter of fact I just cast a vote in my church to support it at an Episcopal Assembly for this Saturday. So much for FEEBLE.

Peace

One last issue...Martha...you have NO clue how close to home this issue is for me and members of my family. Not everyone who comes to FYM decides to block out all other opinions. In fact, sometimes I learn more about my opinion by looking at it from the other view.
 
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Remind me of something, maybe my mind is a little hazy from the cough medicine. Bush says he wants to make an ammendment to define marriage as a union between man and woman. So where are the laws of marriage defined right now? What is the wording?
 
melon said:
Mr. Jacoby is just trying to justify his hatred like any good bigot would.

It IS a civil rights issue--just as "the Creator" created male and female, we are just as "male and female" as everyone else, except we were created to love differently--and everytime religious bigots like him talk, they just make our case stronger. If I am not permitted to marry someday, then I will, frankly, take my talents elsewhere.

Melon

It may be a Civil Rights issue....and you and I may agree upon it, however, do you believe he has a point about the court making laws?

I strongly believe we need to work through the legislative branch to create a law that is not up to interpretation by a court. For example, the idea of acourt that can change its opinions over time. Without Legislation, there is no security in the courts decisions and your right to marry may be in jeaopardy some time in the future without the law on the books. Like the Civil Rights bill of 1875 for example.
 
One other thing.....

Disagree or not with Mr. Jacoby.....

Look at the way Civil Rights was botched for almost 100 years after the Civil War.

I do believe the legislation of the Johnson Administration is what put an end to it all, if I am not mistaken.

When the courts are making their decisions....you risk losing your rights. When it is defined constitutionally the court loses that ability.

Mr. Jacoby, may very well LEGALLY have a point. If you think he does, you need more than a court decision to protect your Civil Rights. Judges retire and get replaced.

This is no different than a woman's right to an abortion. That too is still on a pendulum.

I will go back to making my FEEBLE points.
 
Dread,


I believe the arguments do not wash.

In the 50s and 60s similar arguments were made about Civil Rights.


People were arrested and put in jail for breaking ?laws.?


Many made the argument that ?they? should be patient and wait for legislators to act. Laws would be changed in due time.



Sometime in the early 70s ?Homosexuality? was declared not to be an ?illness? by the WHO.


It is nothing but ignorance, and prejudice that permit otherwise reasonable people to support discrimination.


There were many ?Religious? (chapter and verse) arguments made to support prohibition of mixed-race marriages.

If a Church wants to discriminate, let them.


Fanatics, like John Ashcroft, who has said, ?America will have no King but Jesus, Jesus is King of America? (I paraphrase) can be a bigots in their hearts and minds.

They should have no more right to set the agenda than a ?Shiite Mullah?.
 
The courts are there to do what our Legislature is too cowardly or bigoted to deal with.

I have generally lost faith in both the GOP and the Democratic Party. I only see the Democratic Party as a buffer for the vitriolic and asinine bigotry that pervade that small-minded GOP, although it, to a lesser degree, spills over into the spineless Dems.

They have certainly lost their courage that they once had in the 1960s, but I know what they fear. The Democratic Party has been in a tailspin ever since the South abandoned them over supporting civil rights. And, as such, they fear that doing the right thing again will affect them negatively, while the GOP can cowardly accept the wisdom of the Dems' foresight 10 years down the road and have no political repercussions.

Melon
 
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Deep,

Thanks for the respectful response.

Anything short of laws and amendments will leave this issue up to the changes on the court. Civil Rights depended not just on the court but on legislation.

Again, look at abortion. Every presidential campaign we have to take into account who the president may appoint because the court can change its mind.

Working off of the will of the court ALONE is NOT going to protect anyones rights.

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Civil Rights depended not just on the court but on legislation.

What you seem to be leaving out is the "Civil Disobedience" to unjust and immoral laws that forced? or pressured legislators and courts to act.
 
deep said:


What you seem to be leaving out is the "Civil Disobedience" to unjust and immoral laws that forced? or pressured legislators and courts to act.

I am not leaving it out. I am having a hard time understanding why you would think I am opposed to the civil disobedience though. Definitely that is a part of it.
 
Anything short of laws and amendments will leave this issue up to the changes on the court. Civil Rights depended not just on the court but on legislation.



Separate but equal was the Law of the Land.

Until Brown v. Board of Education, stated that separate is not equal.

Dread, no offense,but Boston is not known for "good race relations". That article was just bullshit, with some window dressing.


The 1875 Civil rights act however well written it may have been, did little to prevent institutionalized racism in this country.


Brown was the turning point followed up by legislation.
 
I think this pretty much explains why for days people sarcastically asked where the opposition was in this thread...And no one responds....because when someone does....they get SHIT on.

Deep, I wish I could follow how my response has brought about this history lesson. I suppose you think I am not aware of Brown V. the Board of Ed. Something I typed about in here two weeks ago.

And now you attack Boston...No offense...but I hate when people throw grenades around baiting others. And that is what that statement is.

The 1875 Civil Rights Act was important. It provided a law that Civil Rights could be argued from.
Institutionalized Racsism was permitted by the Supreme Court by helping perpetuate Separate But Equal.

It proves my point. There needs to be more than a COURT decision to secure civil rights.

So much for repsectful discussion.



:huh: :huh:
 
[moderator]
Totally beside the point, I stand by my decision to merge this into the gay marriage thread. When an article that is about gay marriage is posted and there is already a very recent thread on the subject (i.e. still on the first or second page), it is common practice to merge.

People are free to believe as they like about this issue. If people have stopped reading the thread because they are in the minority on the issue, none of us can help that.
[/moderator]

[pax speaking as herself]
I thought the guy who wrote the article sounded like a pompous ass.

:wave:
[/pax speaking as herself]
 
To all parties: Take a deep breath.

Deep: Maybe you want to back up what you're saying about Boston and race relations.

Dread: That said, I don't think Deep meant any disrespect.

This discussion has gone on for a long time and has mostly gone well. Let's keep up that record. This is an issue that people feel passionately about.
 
paxetaurora said:
If people have stopped reading the thread because they are in the minority on the issue, none of us can help that.

Dread's point is that those who express a minority viewpoint (as measured by FYM) are subject to various forms of attack. That CAN be helped.
 
paxetaurora said:
[moderator]
Totally beside the point, I stand by my decision to merge this into the gay marriage thread. When an article that is about gay marriage is posted and there is already a very recent thread on the subject (i.e. still on the first or second page), it is common practice to merge.

People are free to believe as they like about this issue. If people have stopped reading the thread because they are in the minority on the issue, none of us can help that.
[/moderator]

[pax speaking as herself]
I thought the guy who wrote the article sounded like a pompous ass.

:wave:
[/pax speaking as herself]

BVS speaking to moderator:
I think it's ashame if some have stopped reading this thread, but I think you're right to keep it all in one thread. I personally don't understand why anyone would stop reading the thread because of that reason.

BVS speaking to pax:
I agree, his underlining attitude I found to be very distasteful.
 
I don't think either side in this argument has a franchise on attack or being attacked. People have been spoken to--and not always publicly, keep in mind, sometimes we address things in chat or via PM--when they get out of line.

Speaking for me and how I moderate, I try to keep an open mind. I admit that I am not a perfect mod, and neither are any of the other mods. Regarding this thread specifically, and speaking only for myself, I think I have tried to step in when people were getting personal on either side of the issue. I have asked people nicely to ask other people things nicely. It's only been Ange and I involved in this thread, mostly, and I think mostly we've left the discussion to its own devices. But at the end of the day, if you'd rather not participate in the thread, then that's ultimately your choice. The mods cannot be here 24-7 and we cannot address everything, nor should we be asked to. We frequently remind EVERYONE to mind their manners.

One last point: mods are people too. We are human beings, not software that scans for nasty words and ad hominem fallacious attacks. We feel ways on certain issues, and I already had to cut a whole paragraph out of my response here because I felt I was getting too personal. It's damn hard, albeit necessary, to defend people with whom you do not agree and who have very powerful allies in larger society. I feel sometimes like I'm defending President Bush himself--which, in real life outside this forum, I would never do.

To everyone, then: Think before you speak. Make my job, and the job of all the mods, easier. Think of what you're asking us to do. And if you have a problem with something we do, like merging a thread, ask us via PM or e-mail.

Thanks.
 
nbcrusader said:


Dread's point is that those who express a minority viewpoint (as measured by FYM) are subject to various forms of attack. That CAN be helped.

Whereas I've seen some personal attacks in this forum, from both sides. I think a lot, not all, but a lot of these accusasions of attack that I've seen in here are completely unwarranted. Personal attacks, name calling, etc. shouldn't be tolerated. But from what I've seen in here I've seen a lot of people claiming to be attacked because someone would refute the others point and that person couldn't back up what they stated. I'm sorry but I'm one that believes that if you come in here and make a statement you should be prepared to back it up, that's how debate works. Now I've seen where the discussion rises to an argument, but it still doesn't deserve to be called an attack. I believe that the discussions should remain civil, but with as many blanket statements and people not backing up anything with solid reasoning, it's hard for some not to turn up the heat, this is a passionate subject. But is it an attack, I don't believe so. There has been very little true and solid reasoning backing up GW Bush's and the Rights claim that Gay marriage would destroy the sanctity of marriage that stand with the law. Asking for answers to some of those questions and asking for clarifications don't warrant a claim of attack. Like I said this goes for both sides...

That's just my .02
 
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