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Old 09-02-2005, 11:57 AM   #141
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[Q]We cannot talk about the consistent underfunding of the Army Corps of Engineers, whose efforts to rebuild the Louisiana levees practically halted because of budget cuts last year. Above all, we must never, ever ask whether global warming might be making the annual perils of tropical weather systems much, much worse. [/Q]

The writer of the SALON article must not have watched the Army Corps of Engineers press conference today. The areas that went down were COMPLETED. There were no further projects planned for those areas with or without the funding.
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Old 09-02-2005, 11:58 AM   #142
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Originally posted by Dreadsox



Those buses are just sitting there. Before the disaster struck there were LOCAL GOVERNMENTS that had a responsibility to do something. Those buses sitting there make me sick.

I work for a local government. Recently, we were all required to implement this training for all city employees:

http://www.fema.gov/nims/

Every municipality is required to go through this program, or they will not receive any federal grant money. Your job position determines what level you have to complete.

This quote is interesting:
"For those events that rise to the level of an Incident of National Significance, the Department of Homeland Security provides operational and/or resource coordination for Federal support to on-scene incident command structures."


I'd say the training ain't going so great .
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Old 09-02-2005, 11:59 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by kellyahern


I work for a local government. Recently, we were all required to implement this training for all city employees:

http://www.fema.gov/nims/

Every municipality is required to go through this program, or they will not receive any federal grant money. Your job position determines what level you have to complete.

This quote is interesting:
"For those events that rise to the level of an Incident of National Significance, the Department of Homeland Security provides operational and/or resource coordination for Federal support to on-scene incident command structures."


I'd say the training ain't going so great .
I would agree.

I wonder, since I am two miles away from the nuke plant with 600+ students in my building, exactly how many of the buses that are slated to show when the evacuation order is given would actually show up.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:00 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by kellyahern

This quote is interesting:
"For those events that rise to the level of an Incident of National Significance, the Department of Homeland Security provides operational and/or resource coordination for Federal support to on-scene incident command structures."
Want to bet that Homeland Security has nothing to do with anything before the hurricane hit.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:20 PM   #145
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[Q]"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees," he told Diane Sawyer on ABC's "Good Morning America."

That statement was wholly untrue, as Sidney Blumenthal noted on Wednesday in Salon -- and as the New Orleans Times-Picayune, Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-La., the former chief of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the former director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency all tried to warn in recent years. Cutbacks in funding for flood control and emergency preparedness by the Bush administration and the Republican Congress over the past several years probably made a terrible event much worse. [/Q]

This made me chuckle...I have a quote from President Clinton saying EXACTLY the same thing......

[Q]"Look at all they've had to deal with," former President Clinton told CNN shortly after joining former President Bush on a fundraising campaign for hurricane relief. "I'm telling you, nobody every thought it would happen like this."
[/Q]


Hmmmm.....

Could Sidney Bloomenthal be politicizing it? Nah...never

Shall I post where the Bush Administration cut funding for the levee projects....and then show that the Clinton Administration behaved in the same manner.


Headache is on the right page!!!!!! Verte is on the right page!!!!!

It's not Republicans and its not Democrats. They are equally not doing their job. Christ almighty....
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:26 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
[BCould Sidney Bloomenthal be politicizing it? Nah...never

Shall I post where the Bush Administration cut funding for the levee projects....and then show that the Clinton Administration behaved in the same manner.


Headache is on the right page!!!!!! Verte is on the right page!!!!!

It's not Republicans and its not Democrats. They are equally not doing their job. Christ almighty.... [/B]


but Dread: it is the REPUBLICANS who are in charge. everyone here is blaming the government as a whole, but right now, the lives of thousands of people lay in the hands of a REPUBLCIAN controlled Congress.

we must hold the President responsible for this for far more important reasons than partisan ones (and it strikes me that immediately calling criticism "partisan" is, in and of itself, rather partisan). when Bush looked over at Ashcroft after the jets hit the towers and said, "I want you to make sure this never happens again," it was not meant to be specific to "no more planes hitting large buildings in NYC." it was meant that no American should have to run for his life through an American city. While Americans may perish in a senseless, unforeseen disaster, we'd save the ones we could.

let me ask you this: what if Al-Qaeda had blown up the levees? would the response have been any better?

they should all be fired.

Bush should be impeached.

fuck them all.

(yes, the Dems in Congress too)
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:26 PM   #147
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Originally posted by sharky
Where is the president when his oil buddies are doing this? This photo is NOT Photoshopped.

What was this the third or fourth post in the thread?

This is not politicizing it? The gas prices have what exactly to do with the RESCUE operation.

All due respect, when I was asked if I regretted or had changed my opinions of the thread....going back to why I originally posted it which was this post....

clearly there have been posts about the concerns for the people involved in the trajedy.

There have been other posts made not with the same vein.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:30 PM   #148
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Andrew Sullivan had this to say:



"The complete collapse of effective government and of emergency procedures four years after 9/11 mean only one thing. We do not have an administration capable of running the country during the war on terror. They have bungled homeland security; they have mismanaged Iraq; they have dropped the ball in New Orleans. In each case, a conservative government does not seem to understand that law and order are always, always, the first priority. The glib self-congratulation of government official after official made me retch listening to them. Chertoff mouthed bureaucratese. Only today did the president say that the response was "not acceptable." Notice again the distancing: you, Mr Bush, are the man responsible. It is your performance that is not acceptable. Of course, we have to live with this president for three years - and one can only tremble at the thought of what that means in the event of another terror strike. I do think however that this crisis means an obvious shift in terms of Bush's successor. Two words: Rudy Giuliani. We need someone to do for the federal government what Rudy did for New York's. His social liberalism will now be far less of an obstacle. We need competence again."
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:31 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




but Dread: it is the REPUBLICANS who are in charge. everyone here is blaming the government as a whole, but right now, the lives of thousands of people lay in the hands of a REPUBLCIAN controlled Congress.

we must hold the President responsible for this for far more important reasons than partisan ones (and it strikes me that immediately calling criticism "partisan" is, in and of itself, rather partisan). when Bush looked over at Ashcroft after the jets hit the towers and said, "I want you to make sure this never happens again," it was not meant to be specific to "no more planes hitting large buildings in NYC." it was meant that no American should have to run for his life through an American city. While Americans may perish in a senseless, unforeseen disaster, we'd save the ones we could.

let me ask you this: what if Al-Qaeda had blown up the levees? would the response have been any better?

they should all be fired.

Bush should be impeached.

fuck them all.

(yes, the Dems in Congress too)
Irvine....

I have just showed two instances where your SALON article was 100% wrong.... President Clinton spoke today and said they never through. He was President for eight years, and his administration CUT the funding too. THEY never thought. (AND I AM NOT BLAMING CLINTON)

The army core of engineers said the areas that broke were not areas they were going to work on. They were FINISHED with those areas.

And if you think the republicans and democrats are not equally reponsible for the problems we are having with pork and pet projects, there is nothing I can say.

If you look at who is in charge of the State and Local governements before the storm hit...Verte I think clearly showed it was Democrats.....

The article I posted makes a shitload of sense.....
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:35 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


Irvine....

I have just showed two instances where your SALON article was 100% wrong.... President Clinton spoke today and said they never through. He was President for eight years, and his administration CUT the funding too. THEY never thought. (AND I AM NOT BLAMING CLINTON)

The army core of engineers said the areas that broke were not areas they were going to work on. They were FINISHED with those areas.

And if you think the republicans and democrats are not equally reponsible for the problems we are having with pork and pet projects, there is nothing I can say.

If you look at who is in charge of the State and Local governements before the storm hit...Verte I think clearly showed it was Democrats.....

The article I posted makes a shitload of sense.....
What worries me is the response of the federal government after the hurricane, the recovery effort. Several articles have stated how FEMA was weakened when it was incorporated into the Office of Homeland Security.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:40 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


Irvine....

I have just showed two instances where your SALON article was 100% wrong.... President Clinton spoke today and said they never through. He was President for eight years, and his administration CUT the funding too. THEY never thought. (AND I AM NOT BLAMING CLINTON)

The army core of engineers said the areas that broke were not areas they were going to work on. They were FINISHED with those areas.

And if you think the republicans and democrats are not equally reponsible for the problems we are having with pork and pet projects, there is nothing I can say.

If you look at who is in charge of the State and Local governements before the storm hit...Verte I think clearly showed it was Democrats.....

The article I posted makes a shitload of sense.....


Dread: most of us are not criticizing the breaking of the levees but the total lack of evacuation plan and the sheer ineptitude of the response (which seems eerily similar to the ineptitude of Rummy's occupation of Iraq). we are pointing to Bush looking, again, like the callow child he is. we are pointing to the absence of leadership, the utter verbal fellatio the bureaucrats are performing on each other, the fact that this is NO DIFFERENT than if Al-Qaeda had bombed the levees.

this president said in the 2004 election, "vote for me and i will keep you safe; vote for Kerry and you will die."

well guess what?

we aren't prepared. it is still September 10, 2001. and the fault lies with an administration that has talked up safety and aggression and finding and beating threats before they materialize and kill Americans on the streets of their own cities.

they have failed. hugely and utterly and totally.

these people will not keep me safe, a resident of WDC, should god forbid a chemical or biological attack happen or the metro should be blown up to hell.

these people have been time and time and time again revealed to be utterly inept at the most BASIC function of government: keep your people safe.

and, yes, if this had been a Gore 2 term, i'd say the same things.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:46 PM   #152
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Exactly what do you think the Secretary of State should be doing?

It's called solidarity. She should be working. Her job is, broadly, to serve the American people, and she could be doing something, I'm sure, to get some arses in gear.

Just because, as Secretary of State, she may not have a specific task in this doesn't give her an excuse to skip town for a few days.
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Old 09-02-2005, 01:03 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

most of us are not criticizing the breaking of the levees but the total lack of evacuation plan and the sheer ineptitude of the response
Exactly .
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Old 09-02-2005, 01:21 PM   #154
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New Orleans was never really prepared for a levy break and extensive flooding of the city.

I still think the entire fault lies with sheer human complacency. The governor, the Army Corps of Engineers, etc., tell the city these levies can withstand a cat3 hurricane and our pumping stations can move Xnumber gallons of water out of the city in however many hours, and people just "Okay." They didn't really jump up and down and demand to know what would happen if the hurricane was bigger than cat3. The didn't scream and shout and demand to know what would happen if water was flowing into the city at a time when the pumping stations were inaccessible.

People get used to shit. People can get used to all kinds of shit. You know, there are still people living in the shadow of Mt. Vesuvius. Just like there were people living in a city below sea level which lay between the Gulf, the Mighty Mississippi and Lake Ponchartrain. They got used to living with barges floating by over their heads and reassured themselves that nothing bad was going to happen because it hadn't happened before.

I hope that in the aftermath, they do jump up and down, and scream and shout, and demand better protection and better disaster response planning.
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Old 09-02-2005, 01:28 PM   #155
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Originally posted by pax


It's called solidarity. She should be working. Her job is, broadly, to serve the American people, and she could be doing something, I'm sure, to get some arses in gear.

Just because, as Secretary of State, she may not have a specific task in this doesn't give her an excuse to skip town for a few days.
She is right now.
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Old 09-02-2005, 01:34 PM   #156
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Originally posted by Irvine511




Dread: most of us are not criticizing the breaking of the levees but the total lack of evacuation plan and the sheer ineptitude of the response (which seems eerily similar to the ineptitude of Rummy's occupation of Iraq). we are pointing to Bush looking, again, like the callow child he is. we are pointing to the absence of leadership, the utter verbal fellatio the bureaucrats are performing on each other, the fact that this is NO DIFFERENT than if Al-Qaeda had bombed the levees.

this president said in the 2004 election, "vote for me and i will keep you safe; vote for Kerry and you will die."

well guess what?

we aren't prepared. it is still September 10, 2001. and the fault lies with an administration that has talked up safety and aggression and finding and beating threats before they materialize and kill Americans on the streets of their own cities.

they have failed. hugely and utterly and totally.

these people will not keep me safe, a resident of WDC, should god forbid a chemical or biological attack happen or the metro should be blown up to hell.

these people have been time and time and time again revealed to be utterly inept at the most BASIC function of government: keep your people safe.

and, yes, if this had been a Gore 2 term, i'd say the same things.
Again, I have not said I disagree with criticism....I disagree with some of the politicization of the criticism....

I responded to the article you posted. I posted an article that I think points the finger to the big problems of a disaster of this magnitude.

I do not care who is in office now, there is nothing, absolutely nothing that would have changed what happened or the way it is being responded to.

We are lazy, we think it will never happen to us, and the majority of us will not even think about voting one party out or the other because we are so entrenched in this system.....sadly......we are playing with the cards we are delt.
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Old 09-02-2005, 01:36 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox



I do not care who is in office now, there is nothing, absolutely nothing that would have changed what happened or the way it is being responded to.

Bush decided to have FEMA be part of the Homeland Security Office. That made a difference in how this is being responded to.

From the article that you posted:

Quote:
The hurricane was the first major test of FEMA since it became part of the Homeland Security Department, a massive new bureaucracy that many feared would make the well-respected FEMA another sluggish federal agency.
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Old 09-02-2005, 01:44 PM   #158
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Trust the FEMA head. He's stating that there never really were problems. Everything is dandy on NO.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/kat...nse/index.html
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Old 09-02-2005, 01:45 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


Not the point of the picture I posted.

Those buses are just sitting there. Before the disaster struck there were LOCAL GOVERNMENTS that had a responsibility to do something. Those buses sitting there make me sick.

If I could have been there this weekend I would have gone to help with the volunteer fireman from my town that are going. But I could not.
To be fair, you did accompany the picture with a sarcastic (I assume) comment asking why senior Bush administration officials weren't driving those buses.

I don't disagree that local governments could likely have done more to help people evacuate the city before the hurricane struck. In particular, I feel that more could have been done to help the most vulnerable people (the elderly, those with young children, those without transportation of their own, those with disabilities, etc) to move to a safe location.
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Old 09-02-2005, 01:46 PM   #160
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That may well be....was FEMA unsluggish before? I am not familiar with their response times before, nor am I familiar with any disaster on US soil that meets the scale of this. There are reasons there may be a slow response, not necessarily attributed to the reorganization of FEMA. I will say this, I am all for an evaluation of WTF went on to figure it out. Is it possible to wait until the dust settles.

I am sure everyone working at FEMA wants to help out, as I am sure everyone posting in here would give their right arm to help out. I am not sure we can determine EXACTLY where things went wrong.

I am watching as rescue workers are being shot at by the people they are coming to rescue.

What should be done? SHould the Military Police from the National Guard fire back? I read an MP got shot as a civilian attempted to take his gun from him today.

There is more going on here...
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