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Old 07-09-2007, 11:23 PM   #41
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yes........and the rest of my statement says what after that.......
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:42 PM   #42
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well i thought this was significant. i guess no one else feels it was. ultimately this is a win for the government of pakistan telling the islamist terrorists that reside there that the government is much stronger than they are in a nut shell.
I thought the preceding pages of the thread made it clear that several posters, at least, have been following this story and found it worth discussing...the siege isn't over yet, though.

You aren't troubled by the fact that the government did nothing, and let the occupation of the mosque run on, for 6 months in the first place?
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Old 07-10-2007, 12:56 AM   #43
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I thought the preceding pages of the thread made it clear that several posters, at least, have been following this story and found it worth discussing...the siege isn't over yet, though.

You aren't troubled by the fact that the government did nothing, and let the occupation of the mosque run on, for 6 months in the first place?
Well, you must remember that it is a mosque, which is regarded as a very sensible area for the government to go near with guns and tanks, just as a church is here. They also tried negotiations, which is what a proper government should do, which takes time. I don't think the government viewed this group as a potential threat. Pakistan has an extremely good intelligence service, way better than the US's CIA, so they were quite aware of the movement operating it and its potential. Ultimately, as we saw w/ today's events, it was not very strong.

Ultimately, when the leader said the talks had failed they had had enough. I hope that there wasn't much damage done to the mosque, for that could hurt the government's image, but I applaud them for going after these radicals.
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Old 07-11-2007, 08:51 AM   #44
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Muslim radicals?
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:10 PM   #45
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You'd need a pretty minimal definition of 'threat' to argue that Islamabad had no reason to see the Ghazi brothers and their students as one--granted, they weren't shooting people in the streets (yet), but since January they'd effectively been running a vigilante state-within-a-state out of Lal Masjid...forcibly occupying a children's library; ransacking and looting local stores selling 'un-Islamic' materials; abducting and 're-educating' suspected 'prostitutes,' as well as policemen who then tried to arrest the abductors; issuing a fatwa against a female tourism minister for allowing her male instructor to give her a congratulatory pat after a charity parachute jump; and repeatedly threatening to launch suicide attacks if the government tried to evict them...all of which the government turned a blind eye to. (Until, that is, they proved imprudent enough to abduct a group of Chinese nationals for their next 're-education' campaign.) In the years before, they'd forcibly resisted government attempts to enter the mosque compound and question some of its occupants concerning the London subway bombings; issued an edict that Pakistani soldiers fighting Taliban militants in Waziristan must be denied proper Muslim funerals; instigated a riot in Islamabad following the assassination of a radical Sunni leader; and been charged with masterminding terrorist attacks on government installations (which, like all other charges against them up until now, wound up being mysteriously dropped). And yes, the ISI (intelligence service) were most definitely "aware" of them, but that wouldn't have taken much competence: they went way back with the Ghazi brothers' family--their father, the first cleric of the (government-funded and managed) Lal Masjid, located just a stone's throw from all the major government buildings and long a popular gathering place for the ISI, supported the ISI back in its pre-'GWOT' days, delivering fiery sermons urging young men to join the mujahideen fighting in Afghanistan and Kashmir. (Remember, the Taliban got their start through the joint efforts of the CIA and the ISI who trained and armed them, with the Saudis supplying "matching funds," clerical and 'other' support--after all, we were doing them a favor by first baiting the Soviets into Afghanistan, then bogging them down there for 10 years, so as to keep them away from the Middle East and its oil.) Naturally, when Musharraf did his 2001 about-face and turned on the Taliban, the Ghazi brothers' relations with the ISI soured, but it's implausible to argue that they and their various 'allies' around the country retain no sympathy from any quarters of the Pakistani military-intelligence establishment.

Anyhow, as far as the siege goes, it's clearly Game Over at this point; and considering the big picture of everything that led up to it, it probably has ended about as well for Musharraf as it could have. But what will come next remains very uncertain.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:29 PM   #46
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Anyhow, as far as the siege goes, it's clearly Game Over at this point; and considering the big picture of everything that led up to it, it probably has ended about as well for Musharraf as it could have. But what will come next remains very uncertain.
I agree. Musharraf is quite popular in the cities because he is somewhat of a moderate, and has given Pakistan some reform throughout his reign. He will be fine. Pakistan has a huge army.
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Old 07-13-2007, 03:43 PM   #47
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Egads, they occupied a children's library?
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