MERGED--> terrorists hit mosque... + Pakistanis Storm Mosque

[BVS]

Originally posted by struckpx


a freudian slip is where you accidentally say something you didn't mean too

0 for 2

[yolland]

He can always look it up, it's not worth getting derisive about.

[anitram]

Well, I genuinely wanted to know why sorting Pakistan with the Arabs would be a Freudian slip - it's possible there's a reason for it....

[struckpx]

Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


0 for 2

come again.....

[BVS]

Originally posted by struckpx


come again.....

You were wrong about Pakistan and Freudian slip, don't get me wrong I'm glad someone your age is interested in politics and debate, but your arrogance mixed with misinformation can be very offputting...

[struckpx]

Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


You were wrong about Pakistan and Freudian slip, don't get me wrong I'm glad someone your age is interested in politics and debate, but your arrogance mixed with misinformation can be very offputting...

whatever. that is what a freudian slip is, but you can think of it what you may. and your unwilling to accept others views is quite irritating as well

[BVS]

Originally posted by struckpx


whatever. that is what a freudian slip is, but you can think of it what you may. and your unwilling to accept others views is quite irritating as well

It's not simply "saying something you don't mean to", there's an unconscious aspect to it. Take a look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freudian_slip

This is what I'm saying, after two people told you you weren't correct, you didn't even bother to look it up. That's arrogance.

I'm willing to accept all views as long as they are backed in logic and reasoning. I have many, actually most, conservative friends, so you may want to get to know me a little better before judging me.

[Teta040]

Amazing. There was a Category 2 or 3 Cyclone last Teusday that killed 200+ people and displaced *1.3 million* (NOT 200,000--flimsy buildings there, a lot of damage even from minor storms) which affected parts of India as well, there were thousands of people rioting and attacking local gov't offices becuause of tardy aid and relief, the whole world has been looking at footage from the natural disaster all last week, and our media virtually ignored it until today, when there was a TERRORISM INCIDENT.

Just goes to show you what's really important to us. No doubt Middle America is shaking its head and wondering what is up this time with those Wacky Pakis (if they can even locate it on a map). Not to sound cynical but might not the aftermath of the cyclone have inadvertently triggered this? It's possible....but it's not important for us to be reminded of...well, certain things.

That said, my heart goes out to the people of that poor coutry, and I will pray for the dead and displaced, and hope that there is a peaceful solution and that Mutsherrif can survive all this. That guy is seriously giving Arafat a run for his money at having nine lives-political and otherwise.

[yolland]

I don't think the cyclone had anything to do with the Lal Masjid standoff (which has been going on since January, and the mosque was a flashpoint long before that) coming to a head; the turning point was the abduction of the Chinese nationals by madrassa students last week, followed by an incident a few days back where some of them attempted to occupy a nearby government building.

As far as coverage of the cyclone, yes, it's been minimal here compared to there (though there certainly have been articles in all the major US dailies about it), but frankly, if cynically, I think that's mostly because a cyclone devastating some part of South Asia or another isn't an unusual enough event to be considered "big news" here. Granted they're somewhat less common in Pakistan, but Bangladesh and neighboring regions of India normally lose hundreds of people every year to cyclones, and that doesn't generally get much coverage either, unless the death toll climbs into the thousands. And that's not counting all the lives lost annually in all three countries to monsoons, tidal bores, tornadoes and so on...

Musharraf may survive politically in some capacity or another, but it seems all but inevitable now that it would have to be through a 'genuine' power-sharing arrangement; just not clear with who yet. Although as Judah alluded to, the military in general will likely continue to cast a long shadow over the political process regardless. As it is there are rumors circulating right now that the powerful ISI (military intelligence service) had connections within the Lal Masjid mosque all along, and has been actively manipulating the crisis from the beginning.

[deep]

Originally posted by struckpx


whatever. that is what a freudian slip is, but you can think of it what you may. and your unwilling to accept others views is quite irritating as well

for what it's worth


It does fit the definition for me

If one has a "fixation" on the "middle east" and therefore, mistakenly associates "radical Muslims" with that location regardless of where they were located.

A Freudian slip is not limited to a slip of the tongue, or to sexual desires. It can extend to our word perception where we might read a word incorrectly because of our fixations. It is important to note that these slips are semi-conscious. This is to say that these thoughts are consciously repressed and then unconsciously released.

[anitram]

Originally posted by deep

It does fit the definition for me

If one has a "fixation" on the "middle east" and therefore, mistakenly associates "radical Muslims" with that location regardless of where they were located.

That's exactly what I was trying to say upthread, but you are much more eloquent.

[BVS]

Originally posted by deep


for what it's worth


It does fit the definition for me

If one has a "fixation" on the "middle east" and therefore, mistakenly associates "radical Muslims" with that location regardless of where they were located.

Very true...

[deep]

As bad as these events in Pakistan are,
I do not think the Government will fall.


I think Musharraf is maintaining his relationship with and tight grip on the military.

We could have a turn to "Marshall Law" with the military moving quickly and harshly to contain any serious descent.

We just won't hear much talk about Democracy.

[deep]

and now there is this

Gunshots Heard As Musharraf's Aircraft Was In Air

7/6/2007 6:23:25 AM Friday, gunshots were heard near a place not far away from a military air base when the official aircraft of Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf was in the air, Pakistani officials said.

However, the top army spokesman Maj. Gen. Waheed Arshad denied some local news reports that a rocket fire targeted the president's plane.

A police official and two security officials speaking on conditions of anonymity as they were not authorized to talk to the press, said that police found two anti-aircraft guns on a rooftop near Chaklala Air Base in Rawalpindi, a garrison city near the capital, Islamabad.

[whiteflag]

Lets just hope that he isnt killed before the Pakistanis get a chance to vote in their new kleptocrats.

I'm serious about that. Musharraf is bad news. The folks wanting to replace him are bad news. But if the country goes up in flames before elections can happen, then God help us if the fanatics get hold of the bombs. Some say the scenario is implausible, but what do they know. 9/11 was implausible too.

[yolland]

Originally posted by deep
We could have a turn to "Marshall Law" with the military moving quickly and harshly to contain any serious descent.

Granted, that could have been done much sooner in the case of Lal Masjid--though not necessarily to Musharraf's advantage, as Judah pointed out. And other parts of the political spectrum might prove easier to crack down on--though actually the leverage of the main opposition party, the PPP, is looking pretty good *at the moment*, and that's where much of the 'power-sharing' speculation is trending. But have you been following the events in Waziristan and Balochistan (which are quite relevant to the Lal Masjid standoff since most of the students, as well as the Ghazi brothers, come from that region and support the Taliban fighters there)? You really have the impression that Musharraf is capable of 'containing' that 'dissent'? I think the Chaudhry scandal was a turning point and has permanently weakened him, no matter what political tricks he still has left up his sleeve (and I don't doubt he has quite a few). He certainly could declare martial law as a last resort, but at this point, I'm doubtful whether he could 'contain' the consequences of doing so for long.

[verte76]

Democracy in Pakistan? Dream on............

[struckpx]

Source: BBC

Troops in Pakistan's city of Islamabad have stormed the Red Mosque, after talks with radicals broke down.

"It is a final push to clear the place of armed militants," said military spokesman Major General Waheed Arshad.

The army said 20 militants were killed in the operation, as loud explosions and gunfire were heard.

Three soldiers were killed and 15 injured, the army said. Twenty children escaped from the mosque, where women are also being held.

Students at the Red Mosque and its attached religious schools have been defying the authorities for several months in their campaign for Sharia law in the capital.

'Tough resistance'

The military operation began at about 0400 (2300 GMT Monday).

The troops - attacking from three directions - entered the compound and exchanged fire with the militants holed up inside.

"There are 20 militants dead and 15 to 20 wounded," Gen Arshad said.

The army says it has taken over the building's roof, but is meeting "tough resistance" from militants in the basement.

Those inside the mosque are using hand grenades, light machine guns, petrol bombs and other weapons, and the army says it expects the operation will last another four hours, the BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan reports.

Ambulances are waiting nearby to help any wounded.

It is not clear exactly how many people were left inside the mosque when the assault began.

Mosque leader Abdul Rashid Ghazi earlier told Geo TV that his mother had been wounded by gunshot.

"The government is using full force. This is naked aggression. My martyrdom is certain now," Mr Ghazi said.

'Very disappointed'

The talks aimed at resolving the crisis peacefully reportedly broke down over the militants' demand for an amnesty for all inside the mosque.

The government wants to detain a number of people on a wanted list, and also a number of foreigners whom it says are inside.

"I am returning very disappointed," said former PM Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, after talks conducted by loudspeaker and mobile phone with Mr Ghazi.

"We offered him a lot, but he wasn't ready to come on our terms," said Mr Hussain.

Security forces began their siege of the mosque a week ago, not long after students there abducted seven Chinese workers they accused of running a brothel.

On Monday, three Chinese workers were killed in Peshawar in an attack said to be linked to the unrest in Islamabad.

There is speculation that Islamic militants may be targeting Chinese people in Pakistan.

Women and children

Religious affairs minister Ejaz-ul-Haq, one of the negotiators who tried to reach an agreement, has described those in charge at the mosque as "hardened terrorists".

At least 21 people have died since fighting erupted when the army surrounded the mosque last Tuesday, including an army commander shot dead inside the mosque on Sunday.

Mr ul-Haq said women and children had been locked up on two floors of the Jamia Hafsa religious school, which is attached to the mosque.

As many as five "hardcore terrorists" were inside the mosque, he added, saying that one person killed on the first day of the siege belonged to Jaish-e-Mohammad, an outlawed radical Muslim organisation which has been linked to al-Qaeda.

Mr Ghazi has denied the presence of any banned extremist groups.

He says those inside are students of his religious school and he is in charge.

He has said as many as 1,800 followers remained in the mosque, although this cannot be verified.

Earlier, Mr ul-Haq said up to 250 militants - including foreign radicals - were leading the fighting.

More than 1,000 supporters left last week under mounting pressure from security forces, although only about 20 have left since Friday.

I really appreciate Mr. Musharraf for going after this mosque and curbing the fanatacism that is trying to take place and escalate in his country. Pakistan is very important to the war in Afghanistan, but also to the war against Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups as well. It is important to show that the Pakistan army is not afraid to handle these Islamic militants and show that they will take care of them if necessary.

So, hats off to Mr. Musharraf.

[struckpx]

well i thought this was significant. i guess no one else feels it was. ultimately this is a win for the government of pakistan telling the islamist terrorists that reside there that the government is much stronger than they are in a nut shell.

[phillyfan26]

Originally posted by struckpx
well i thought this was significant. i guess no one else feels it was.

It's been like a half hour.