MERGED: Talking about a revolution + London says NO!

[verte76]

About 500 people showed up at the demonstration in Birmingham, in the U.S, today. I have an awful cold but I went anyway. I had to. It was fantastic. I'm really proud I was part of it and I hope to heck we can stop this insanity.

 

[follower]

I haven't been able to find pics yet of NYC & LA, but the police said NYC had over 500,000 and they always estimate low. It was a sight to behold on Worldlink. Cleveland wasn't bad for the size of the city. Last week the Republican Mayor sponsored a resolution making it one of the 107 cities on record as against the war.

Just wanted to send you a Sounds great. Last month, during the World Social Forum here in my hometown, Porto Alegre, some participants from US (there were 1.000, biggest representation after the host, us brazilians) got to be heard by the local media and they said that there have been huge protests and manifestations in US, but their media kinda ignore them. It seems that, despite the media boicot, things are improving there.

 

[hippy]

and I hope to heck we can stop this insanity.

 

[follower]

30.000 people in downtown S?o Paulo, 20.000 in Rio, 10.000 more spread through other cities...yeah, I?m following the local news . Unfortunetaly I couldn?t go to the local protest, but I just read it was impressive.

 

[verte76]

OMG, Kiev!!! Wow, spiff!! I haven't looked at all of the pix but I'm going to try to find Sofia, Bulgaria as well. Spiff sign about "not always wanting to be German".

I found Sofia! Not to mention Budapest, Bucharest, Warsaw, Berlin and other cities that didn't used to allow demonstrations against the government. This is fantastic.

 

[the olive]

Most of those pics were impressive displays of civil protest BUT - If I were an american I would be quite offended at those protesters burning my flag. Gee, I don't suppose those individuals had a bias before all this Iraq stuff, do you?

 

[PaleBlueDot]

Most of those pics were impressive displays of civil protest BUT - If I were an american I would be quite offended at those protesters burning my flag. Gee, I don't suppose those individuals had a bias before all this Iraq stuff, do you?

That's a good point. No one's making war on Islam, that's ridiculous.

I think...that everyone has their own reasons for being there. But it seems that the majority of the people protesting were doing so for the right reasons.

 

[verte76]

Most of those pics were impressive displays of civil protest BUT - If I were an american I would be quite offended at those protesters burning my flag. Gee, I don't suppose those individuals had a bias before all this Iraq stuff, do you?

Oh, I do *not* like the flag burning. I'm an American and this really did offend me. I don't think idiots like this typified Demonstrator X today, however. Most had no intention of burning an American flag or committing an act like the one in Greece where a car was firebombed or something like that. This was indeed offensive.

 

[deep]

los angeles

 

[PopTart Pamela]

Marched today (Sunday16th) in Sydney with my husband - about 300.000 to 400.000 people.
Was just astonishing!

Photos incredible - thanks so much.

 

[hiphop]

I think what this really shows is Bush's glaring lack of diplomacy. I have a feeling that Clinton could have amassed support for this war.

But we all know that all the protest in the world isn't going to change a thing...

Melon

1) Yes. Bushs administation has f***ed up U.S. foreign diplomatic policies.

2) I don?t think Clinton would have supported that war, or talked of an axis of evil, at all.

3) Sometimes it changes things... when it gets a little dangerous for some players (meaning that they feel unsure about being able to continue with their criminal acts all throughout the world), even if they got all the power they need, they might think to alternatives.

There is a point where Bush is forced to care about public opinion. Not yet, maybe. But the time may come as well.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

London says NO to war!

Did anyone else join the demo of TWO MILLION people in London yesterday? The biggest demonstration in British history!

It was the most amazing protest I've ever joined. The diversity of the protestors was incredible, it wasn't just the people who normally join anti-war demos, but schoolchildren, families, even the Tories were there!! (Okay, I laughed at the Conservatives against the War banner but I was glad to see it there.)

The demo really showed just how strongly British people feel about this issue. We don't want war. Two million feel so strongly that they'll go all the way to London to protest. Millions more oppose war but weren't able to go to the demonstration. Surely Blair has to listen now?

And it wasn't only London - there were demos in more than 400 cities across the world, it's estimated that over 100 million people took part altogether. I think we can say world opinion is against the war

Did anyone else join the London protest, or any of the others? Share your thoughts about it - what banners did you see, what did you chant/sing, who did you see there?

 

[hiphop]

to London.

I am amazed.

What is Blair gonna do now... this pseudo social, neoliberal asshole?

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

WOW! Thank you so much for posting all those pictures...it's amazing to see the depth of anti-war feeling right around the world.

It's great to hear from people here who joined the protests

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

to London.

I am amazed.

What is Blair gonna do now... this pseudo social, neoliberal asshole?

Well I don't think it's far-fetched to say that Blair could find that his support for war destroys his political career. The Labour party is split on this issue, sure Blair gets the support of the right of the party, but the majority of Labour party members oppose this war (72% according to the last poll I saw) and if Blair goes ahead with it then there will be huge repercussions for him, even to the point of him losing leadership of the Labour party or (hopefully not) Labour losing the next election.

And *pseudo social, neoliberal asshole* is one of the best descriptions I've ever heard of him

 

[Angela Harlem]

hey FizzingW's, I'm going to merge your thread into this one, as London had such a great turnout.

 

[Aine]

That's amazing.
Thanks Anitram.
Ant to those who say it won't change a thing:life's too short to
give up,at least you're given the choice to try or not to try.

 

[verte76]

I'm starting to forget where I've posted my demonstration notes. We had about 500 here in Birmingham, in the U.S. South where we don't have alot of anti-war demonstrations, to say the least as it's a bastion of conservativism. Except for one nut people were polite and respected our rights. There were 28 speakers, poets, and singers. Unfortunately I didn't manage to stay for the whole thing, I was running a fever and felt like hell. So I left a bit early. I hated to because I was having fun but the fever wasn't fun. But I'm so glad I went!

 

[bonoman]

OK i am just wondering something. I am not for a war in Iraq but doesnt anyone else here think that only protesting againist the war is the right thing to do.

Why arent there 100 million out protesting about Saddam killing his own people? I was wondering if anyone that went to the rallies if you heard any of the speakers telling Saddam to complie and to stop being such a harsh dictator? I support rallies but shouldnt you be fair to the whole situation. Could this not all be solved if Saddam just let the inspectors do their jobs?

Oh and by the way, the only way Blair gets re-elected is if Saddam attacks Uk and Blair retaliates and makes that seem like the reason he wanted to go into Iraq.

 

[JOFO]

OK i am just wondering something. I am not for a war in Iraq but doesnt anyone else here think that only protesting againist the war is the right thing to do.

Why arent there 100 million out protesting about Saddam killing his own people? I was wondering if anyone that went to the rallies if you heard any of the speakers telling Saddam to complie and to stop being such a harsh dictator? I support rallies but shouldnt you be fair to the whole situation. Could this not all be solved if Saddam just let the inspectors do their jobs?

Oh and by the way, the only way Blair gets re-elected is if Saddam attacks Uk and Blair retaliates and makes that seem like the reason he wanted to go into Iraq.

yeah exactly. by the way, the "peace ralliers" punched cops and toppled a horse in new york. way to go.

at others, they burned american flags and chanted "death to america and israel"

something to be proud of, really. I mean, that's giving peace a chance.

ok so, let's find an alternative to war. do it the right way. and again, this WOULD NOT BE HAPPENING if saddam cut the crap and just obeyed the un mandates.

 

[oktobergirl]

WOW. I am speechless.

 

[elfyx]

to London.

I am amazed.

What is Blair gonna do now... this pseudo social, neoliberal asshole?

Hehe, not to mention Fabian society elitist, and ever-spewer of uber-intellectual John Ruskin's collectivist ideologies.

 

[us3]

Um this was a letter sent to " this pseudo social neo-liberal asshole" Blair by an Iraqi ex-patriate...

I want to ask those who support the anti - "war" movement (apart from pacifists - that is a totally different situation) their motives and reasoning behind such support. You may feel that America is trying to blind you from seeing the truth about their real reasons for an invasion. I must argue that in fact, you are still blind to the bigger truths in Iraq. I must ask you to consider the following questions:

Saddam has murdered more than a million Iraqis over the past 30 years, are you willing to allow him to kill another million Iraqis?

Out of a population of 20 million, 4 million Iraqis have been forced to flee their country during Saddam's reign. Are you willing to ignore the real and present danger that caused so many people to leave their homes and families?

Saddam rules Iraq using fear - he regularly imprisons, executes and tortures the mass population for no reason whatsoever - this may be hard to believe and you may not even appreciate the extent of such barbaric acts, but believe me you will be hard pressed to find a family in Iraq who have not had a son/father/brother killed, imprisoned, tortured and/or "disappeared" due to Saddam's regime. What has been stopping you from taking to the streets to protest against such blatant crimes against humanity in the past?

Saddam gassed thousands of political prisoners in one of his campaigns to "cleanse" prisons - why are you not protesting against this barbaric act?

An example of the dictator's policy you are trying to save - Saddam has made a law to give excuse to any man to rape a female relative and then murder her in the name of adultery. Do you still want to march to keep him in power? . . . .

Of course it would be ideal if an invasion could be undertaken, not by the Americans, but by, say, the Nelson Mandela International Peace Force. That's not on offer. The Iraqi people cannot wait until such a force materialises; they have been forced to take what they're given. That such a force does not exist - cannot exist - in today's world is a failing of the very people who do not want America to invade Iraq, yet are willing to let thousands of Iraqis to die in order to gain the higher moral ground. Do not continue to punish the Iraqi people because you are "unhappy" with the amount of power the world is at fault for allowing America to wield. Do not use the Iraqi people as a pawn in your game for moral superiority -one loses that right when one allows a monster like Saddam to rule for 30 years without so much as protesting against his rule.

 

[Dreadsox]

excellent letter

 

[verte76]

Awhile back some of the Kurds were supporting a war because you're right, Saddam has treated them like . Recently some of these have gotten irked because they claim that the government has backed off of some of their democratization promises. I mean, these guys had better put their money where their mouth is. What's the guarantee that an invasion will get rid of Saddam? The first one did not, obviously; two attacks on Serbia didn't bounce Slobodan Milosovic. They only kicked Milosovic out after a botched political election which elected a new president, a screwy economy and Serbian resolve kicked hiim out and sent him to the Hague. I'd support a war if I really thought it would get rid of Saddam. I honestly don't think so. Quite a few people don't think so. I wish it were otherwise.

 

[verte76]

This PLEBA girl is going home. I only got involved in this debate because I have such strong feelings about it. I respect the views of people who don't agree; many of the arguments are very logical. I am no supporter of Saddam Hussein. I'm also no lover of controversy. I hate it. It's sort of incongruous for a U2 fan to hate controversy, I suppose, but dammit I'm an autistic. We don't thrive on this stuff. I enjoyed my visit! See ya around, I guess.

 

[bonoman]

Well that letter says it all.

Where all the anti-war people now

 

[Saracene]

OK i am just wondering something. I am not for a war in Iraq but doesnt anyone else here think that only protesting againist the war is the right thing to do.

Why arent there 100 million out protesting about Saddam killing his own people? I was wondering if anyone that went to the rallies if you heard any of the speakers telling Saddam to complie and to stop being such a harsh dictator?

Ah, but you see, unless it's the people of our own nations who are getting killed or doing the killing, we file it under Someone Else's Problem.

 

[hiphop]

No, that letter is not brilliant and doesn?t say it all.

The anti war protesters don?t leave a shadow of doubt that they are against Saddam?s political leadership to.

Plus there are some options of removing him, instead of fighting a war and inflaming the whole region.

The most natural option would be if the Iraqis got up to fight for their right, do a revolution, and overthrow Saddam, then decide they want a democratic system, etc. etc.

The U.S. has no right at all to decide for the Iraqi people. Iraqis have to be strong enough to fight for themselves, if they want to remove him. In fact, there exists an opposition movement, from what I hear.

The U.S. foreign policy is not famous at all for installing democratic leaders, but famous for installing dictators (see Latin America). So, the ppl who are protesting for peace, know that the situation for Iraqi civil society will very probably stay about the same shit, because it is not the US interest to make all the world peaceful and democratic (like your propaganda always tries to tell you), but to keep control over as many regions as possible. Keeping control is easier with another dicatatorship (one that plays by the rules of America, though) than with an independent democratic government.

Print out your letter and send it to me, I know what to use it for.

 

[verte76]

Thank you for mentioning exile as an option. I agree with it. So does the business community in Switzerland, hardly a bastion of radical political activities. Those people are very conservative. If you hate taxes and a strong centralized government, you'll love Switzerland. There is a rumor going around the Swiss about people cutting a deal for exile for Saddam and avoiding blowing up the Middle East. I'd bet serious bucks that some of these Swiss business people were in that demonstration in Bern. Heck, I recognized the main drag in Bern in the picture. I love that city.